Times Square Billboard by Space150
1 year ago
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1. Times Square Billboard by Space150
1 year ago
For Forever21
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Nicholaus GoossenDirector -
space150Agency / Tech
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Oskars Cirsis1 day ago -
Michael Ricker3 weeks ago -
bamba4 weeks ago -
FromJapanWithLove2 months ago -
Catweasel2 months ago -
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pixelsumo.com/post/inspired-by-hand-from-above
Watch videos here...
chrisoshea.org/projects/hand-from-above/#video
[update tue 29th june]
I wanted to post a reply up here in my original post, as it would get lost at the bottom of vimeo's 100 limit.
I had emailed space150 last Friday (when this launched) and was waiting for a reply before responding with my views, but I have not had a reply yet, so felt I needed to update this post with clarity on my views and the situation.
I have not posted the link above to attack anyone, or to claim a blatant rip off. My intention was to try and spark a proper and civilised debate over various issues.
I was contacted in March by space150, with them asking “We have a couple OpenCV projects in the works right now that our designers and developers are working through and would love to chat with you about the possibility of contracting your services for a duration on these projects”.
This is a very vague and generic request, but I turned it down because of being too busy.
However, what they should have said is that we want to make something like Hand from Above, with models for a fashion store in Time Square, did I want to be involved in any way, or at least take credit as their inspiration. But they didn't.
Client confidentiality is not a valid reason for not mentioning Hand from Above, as you can talk about this without needing to go into specifics.
Was there any mention of my piece in their press? No. Should there have been? Well, that’s the part of the debate isn't it?
Ad agencies claiming originality and innovating new tech becomes transparent when its clear where ideas were borrowed from or which programming open source frameworks were used (without acknowledgement).
For me a comment by Golan Levin below hit the nail on the head:
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But one person -- the artist who invented the core premise, and who showed that it could be done -- received nothing: not even the courtesy of a heads-up. Not even being asked the straight question, "We intend to reinterpret this idea; in respect of your obvious prior authorship, what would be an acceptable form of acknowledgement/involvement/remuneration to receive your blessing? So that we can go forth without damaging our reputation in the worldwide community of interactive designers and developers?"
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I also am not claiming mine is better. Although I feel my piece maybe has more heart, I have been complimentary about what space150 did...
“Good to see what can be achieved with a better production budget, such a using video for the animation, higher resolution camera and massive screen. There are a few other things it does like take a snapshot Polaroid and picking people out carrying a yellow Forever21 bag.”
I do not know Nicholaus Goossen. It appears that he is an independent director, and is not an employee of agency space150. So people should not take his views to be that of space150, just to clarify.
It is unfortunate that some people are being rude towards others for no apparent reason, and this needs to stop before Vimeo ban their accounts.
Advertising agencies are often lifting/borrowing/using the ideas of artists, and there are many examples online. The amount of content on youtube makes these sort of situations common now. It is easier to sell to a client something that has been done before, rather than invent something completely new. However such is the creative community, that people will notice and call an agency on it if the idea is too similar.
Of course giants are not new, and I am not claiming to have invented big hands. I am not claiming ownership of using cameras, computer vision or outdoor screens.
At conferences I often show my cultural inspiration for this piece. Land of the Giants on TV was a big inspiration for me, something I mention on the documentation page, seeing the fear in peoples faces as this big hand comes down to get them. God games (user controlling a hand) such as Black & White, Attack of the 50 Foot Woman, Monty Python, forced perspective (taking a photo on your camera to look like you are picking someone up, but they are just further away), walking through model villages.
After creating the artwork, people told me about video/animations that I hadn't seen before, like Kids in the Hall sketch (pinching your face), Cyriak animations, I-park video piece.
But what I am not talking about here is cultural inspiration. There is a BIG difference between that and doing something that is fairly identical in basic principle.
Hand from Above used the settings of an outdoor screen and camera, a giant picks up people from the crowd in real time, removing them from the video and drawing an empty background in their place. This had never been done before.
This ad for forever21 does exactly the same, all be it with a bigger production budget and team behind it.
Unfortunately when this happens, this relationship between ideas and re-appropriation is one sided. If an artist had copied an advertisement on tv for example, making it into a video installation, then becoming popular, wouldn't the advertising company sue the artist for copyright? Would be interesting to hear if there any examples of this.
Of course anyone I had been talking to about turning Hand from Above into something bigger might now feel less inclined to do it, now that space150 have done it, which could create a loss of earnings on an idea I originally had.
So if the creative community are tired of having their ideas lifted into commercials, what are the issues up for debate?
1) originality of ideas and ownership of those. If no ideas are truly original, where does the grey area of originality sit?
2) Should artists be credited for inspiration? Should ad agencies claim to be original knowing they will be told otherwise by social media later?
3) What should an ad agency do in an ideal situation in terms of working with artists?
4) What do artists want from ad agencies?
I hope the flame comments stop and it goes back to an interesting debate.
Chris x
[update 1st july]
Unfortunately Nicholaus Goossen has removed all of his comments to people below, meaning that the thread of discussion doesn't make sense and makes other people here look bad for retaliating.
Fortunately I saved the page, and I hope this is ok with vimeo
chrisoshea.org/vimeo-debate/
For a comparison of what was said, see this image
flickr.com/photos/pixelsumo/4752204508/sizes/o/
Chris - great work on your HAND billboard - you were the first. Respect. *This is different though. In fact, it's even more complicated. What you're doing is akin to Orson Wells calling people rip offs for shooting "deep focus" after he pioneered it with Citizen Kane.*
update: @nick, good to see that you removed your offensive comments, why not like that in the first place ...
When we started this project, we looked at a lot of different inspirations as varied as yesyesno’s amazing interactive projection installment and the classic “Attack of the 50 Foot Woman” movie. And we talked with a lot of different potential partners. Chris O’Shea was one of those.
In March we asked Chris if he’d be willing to get involved in an upcoming project, but couldn’t go in to too many specifics due to client confidentiality. He declined and we started work with our team. A lot of talented creative people then spent a lot of time and effort bringing this entire project to the public - and we're incredibly proud of the results for our client.
We have great respect for Chris and his work and for all artists. They inspire the commercial community day in day out. As agencies – and artists – we can all work harder at crediting inspiration and sources that drive us forward.
On a related note, Nick Goossen, while a talented and outspoken director, is not an employee of space150 and his views remain his own.
- Billy Jurewicz, space150
- Billy Jurewicz, space150
not doing that seems like a great way to develop a ton of bad will with the artists and people who are developing the ideas that "inspire" you.
just my 2c -- again, no offense pls, take it or leave it.
Nicholaus Goossen 3 days ago
@thesystemis - How would you know if Chris was contacted beforehand or not? You're too busy "hacking" or whatever it is you do. Keep your 2 cents next time.)
huh? I know chris well, and he told me.
Nicholaus Goossen 3 days ago
@thesystemis - Does Chris need you, his great buddy, to "defend" him? Seems like he's a big enough boy to handle it on his own. BTW - he WAS contacted about the project. Fact. Retreat to your hacking hole now please.)
wow -- you are sure sensitive.
he wasn't contacted properly -- he checked yesterday and saw that he got an email asking him if he wanted to work on something vague, not a "hey, we are making this project that's *very* similar to your project" a heads up, asking of permission, a skinny (or fat) check, or even just a proper credit. nothing.
I am voicing my displeasure - this feels like a pretty big rip off and could have been handled much better, including now. Case in point, you essentially attack him above ("Look at me! Look at me!") for calling it out, and you attack me ("Retreat to your hacking hole now please") for speaking my mind on it.
you might try: honesty, respect and tact.
It's not a RIP OFF but some credits would have been fair.
It's not better then Chris', regardless the pretty girls.
You ain't doing a great service to Space150 as lawyer (I would hire @thesystemis if I had to choose one).
You better get your information straight on @thesystemis (I don't see any awards section on your site)
I hope you will find the love soon! ;)
Anyway, Nicholaus, you are right when you say that the concept is not yours, you are just the director, but so why are you defending so strongly the agency who could have done more effort to better give the credits? If you think Chris didn't deserve the credits, you could have explained why without being such an asshole (ie. I am a strong believer that ideas are in the air, this doesn't really apply in this case of course).
Despite I am enjoying a lot your answers, and you are 2 years younger than me, I still have difficult to understand how a professional so successful could look so immature.
From one side I think you are under-estimating the power of the web, from the other I give you credit for not being afraid of keeping making enemies answer after answer :)
But dont let yourself get draged down in the mud by mr Goossen.
Stealing or not, if you are a pro act like one !!
Nick face it, its a blatant rip off just with some pretty girls to Jazz it up but its not any cleverer or progressive. I think the the whole FB/Myspace comparison is clutching at straws.
You re-did the concept with a bigger budget, fine. But is it really that much work to put proper credit when credit is due, regardless if an email was answered? True, the little people and the client probably don't care, but the creative community does.
Dan - did you pay Steven Spielberg or the movie studio when you took CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND *and repurposed it for your light show?*
You got there first and invented a genre. Imitation is flattery, but cheques are nice too. Concentrate on your 'second novel' and ignore the squabbles that follow innovation. Your creativity cannot be copied.
Just keep creating, and don't sweat it too bad. The good news is, they will always be playing catch up. You've got the lead, and it will probably stay that way.
Well, it's just not original - as isn't the idea with the photos [ en.tackfilm.se/ ]. But that's the way things are in art. Someone starts it and other people just copy.
Still: Cool idea, Chris.
I don't really know how this works... how would you even protect an idea like this? People steal ideas all the time.. At least they contacted Chris first I guess
awrgh.
Also, Goosen knows he's been caught.
Have to add, Nick, you really come across as a very big asshat in this thread. Shame.
But please don't be put off Chris - Hand from Above has been a massive inspiration to me and you're always gonna be way ahead of these guys. Just take it as a compliment and keep doing great work.
Seb
I believe that one day their work will be more relevant and interesting to a bigger audience and we'll stop creating microsites, viral videos and facebook pages to create something better experiences.
That being said, when artwork is shown in the world - it is there to influence and inspire. Unfortunately the majority of the world is catering to consumption rather than creation. We want things that we make to be seen - and by showing them, we are giving them to the world... To be copied, stolen, reinterpreted.
First: Thank you for some brilliant and inspirational work.
Second: Few will remember Forever21's ad on Time Square past next week but we will remember the Hand from Above.
Third: Most "creative" agencies traded innovation and creativity for plagiarism and duplication "with a twist". So this shouldn't come as a surprise.
Fourth: We, creatives, are inspired by the work of others and should therefore always give credit where credit is due.
(Nicholaus Goossen's original reply was deleted, see archive: chrisoshea.org/vimeo-debate/)
"Nicholaus Goossen:
Yeah I get paid. Part of being a real life director. This isn't club-fantasy-ecstasy-VJ-land. "
I wasn't going to post anything till I read this cheap low blow to an entire community of artists.
And that is no surprise, advertisement agencies are machines of appropriation and repurpose. If you take a look at the best ads out there you will see that none have a original language, in their majority they put a brand on top of some artistic movement or a artist work.
In this process they take off the contextualization of the original work, and the result is clearly more empty. You cant compare the depth of Chris work with this appropriation.
But I think the problem is not exactly the rip off, that is a normal operation of the advertisement agencies. The problem is that they think they are doing some creative work, and worse, that they want to defend their work.
Goosen said: "Space150 re-imagined the concept, built brand new technology for it, and then executed on a much larger scale..." Please, stop being so blind. To put a brand on top of others works is no re-imagine the concept as your creative department is no creative.
Advertisement agencies need to stop fooling themselves, and start understanding and being conscious of what they do: appropriation and repurpose (just to be clear, I don't think that it is a problem). But, just because they are in touch with big money doesn't mean that they are any more than that.
Congratulations on getting a crowd of people to laugh and cheer together :)
If nothing else this post has become an amazing aggregator for talented and opinionated artists on Vimeo.
Good art directors and agencies get inspired by artists. Excellent art directors and agencies hire those artists.
I don't believe that ideas can be contained or labeled as property. At the same time, this dialogue is becoming an amazing case study of the community's solidarity for the value of gratitude.
The pity is that the participants in the copyright regime are too scared to acknowledge inspiration for fear of getting sued by the original artists.
However, I am utterly baffled by the comments of a certain individual in this whole discussion. A discussion among grown-ups has deteriorated into a discussion at an extremely low level.
Do these artists expect apologies or a check? I guess not. Do they expect credits? Perhaps not, I for sure would not. But at the very least do they expect a childish discussion about topics that are hardly in any way related to the issue. I feel sorry for Nick himself, and the team at Space150 who are undoubtedly suffering from the atmosphere this individual is creating.
Look at this from this point of view. Your idea went viral. That's a good thing. You weren't credited? That's not your problem, but certainly somebody else's.
An agency got paid for 'taking inspiration' from a brilliant piece of work by Chris.
That agency should have gone to an extraordinary effort contacting Chris prior to starting production - being very very clear with what their concept was and giving Chris the option of some sort of involvement. Co-Creative on the project would have been ideal and when the project would have been released, there would have been a brilliant story there and it would have had the blessing of a really fantastic creative community.
Nicholaus Goossen your attitude is really shocking and I wonder what involvement you had in the project? Bad mouthing the most talented artists and creatives is really not cool. Hope you've realised this by now.
Mr O'Shea, do you NOT remember saying this?
"I’m not by any means suggesting that the creators have seen Hand from Above, but it certainly feels familiar. Maybe inspired by? What do you think?"
So which is it? Because I'm looking at BOTH installations and yours seems nothing more than a GIANT, live action Facebook poke. How you expect me to take you seriously when the FIRST thing you do is post YOUR link instead of an educated, ADULT reaction is beyond me and getting your 'fans' to start a flame war to divert attention away from BOTH installations is the icing on the ludicrous cake.
So if your mission was to make yourself look like a jackass and cause another guy to have to defend himself like two kids on the playground, CONGRATULATIONS. Way to go, Champ.
The REAL question is: If you WERE asked to participate, then why DIDN'T you? Because it seems to me like you thought the concept sounded crap and then decided to ONLY give a damn when it started getting some 'face time'
Goossen's FIRST response to you was very civil, yet YOU chose to have your little flame war pals jump in the fray instead of handling it YOURSELF (which is what an ADULT would ALSO do).
As a matter of fact, O'Shea...your installation smells an AWFUL lot like Project Natal/Kinect (which as a VG Journalist, I have EXTENSIVE knowledge of), so does this mean you're gonna claim Microsoft ripped you off, too? The Japanese have been doing stuff like this for YEARS, you gonna go after them, too? Do you realize how asinine this all sounds now?
You ARE a great conceptual artist but I think you're forgetting that EVERYTHING comes from evolution/inspiration. Your installation was inspired by someone/something, are THEY coming after YOU demanding credit?
Grow up, man, and embrace the continuing evolution of this AMAZING interactive world instead of claiming you invented it.
About the "little 4-chan pals", do a bit of research!
[In comments which he has since removed, the billboard's video director Nick Goossen directed ad-hominem abusives to some of the world's leading new-media artist/developers (@chrisoshea, @zachlieberman, @memotv, @liasomething, @drwoohoo, @pierreproske, and more). Goossen removed his comments after Space150's apology and acknowledgment of Chris O'Shea's priority (q.v.) made it obvious that the concept of "Hand from Above" had, in fact, been lifted. Nevertheless, Goossen's removal of his comments has left the dialogue looking quite lopsided, including my own reply here. Since the original discussion can be see archived in its entirety at chrisoshea.org/vimeo-debate/ , I have pared my response to the most pertinent portion.]
Although Goossen's remarks are uncivil (and ignorant of interactive and computational media arts), he's absolutely right about one thing, when he writes, "the concept is locked before I'm hired - if you worked in the industry you'd know an ad agency comes up with the idea and then hires a director." Goossen merely directed the models for the shoot -- it wasn't his job to "come up with the idea". We might object to the attitude and tone of his retorts above, but the real culprit in this sorry situation is someone in the space150 agency. There's simply no question that they lifted Chris's concept (for the record: a giant billboard character plucking live pedestrians, etc.). Their record of having contacted him shows that they were aware of his project -- and by emailing him with a "vague request" (instead of a specific proposal or even a heads-up notice), they plainly reveal their low character.
A lot of people benefited in a lot of different ways from the Times Square billboard. (What was the budget for this thing, any guesses?) But one person -- the artist who invented the core premise, and who showed that it could be done -- received nothing: not even the courtesy of a heads-up. Not even being asked the straight question, "We intend to reinterpret this idea; in respect of your obvious prior authorship, what would be an acceptable form of acknowledgement/involvement/remuneration to receive your blessing? So that we can go forth without damaging our reputation in the worldwide community of interactive designers and developers?"
By the way: I read your brilliant article on using Bloggie + OpenFrameworks & Processing. Thank you for sharing ;)
I have now. He sounds lovely.
Lou Lumenick
New York Post
That Chris O'Shea quote? How is that inconsistent? It's called a rhetorical question. I guess that subtlety went right over your head. He didn't contradict himself. Sorry. Thanks for playing.
Show us the connection to Project Natal/Kinect.
Chris never said he invented any 'interactive world'. Seriously, can you please try to feign an intelligent conversation?
Also, you're an idiot if you can't draw a direct line between these two projects. The Space150 version lacks the depth of Chris' original and really clearly would have never existed without it.
I think I hear your mother calling. Thanks for playing.
the "mother" remark is telling everyone you must be 12 or something.
don't you need parental approval to sign up to vimeo?
given the wit (sarcasm here, although I know it's wasted on you), you must really be the offspring of nicholaus goossen and some of his models.
@ Kip--I agree, imitation is flattery and Chris should be stoked that his idea, whether stolen or not, influenced something that is in Times Square.
@ Nuthinking--your right about Nicholaus not needing to defend himself because he is not guilty of ripping off Chris's idea, BUT he does have the right to defend himself when people find him and start attacking his character and he should be aggressive.. I mean c'mon @Adam Clare (assrat) @MemoAkten (doucebag)????? I don't think that the juvenile actions are one-sided.
@Nuthinking > @ mccr1x WHO FUCKING CARES IF SHE JUST JOINED VIMEO< so did I? We can't defend our friend while you and all your buddies gang up? I guess I didn't realize I needed to be "somebody" in your little reality in order to have a valid point or opinion...
@Dan Wilcox--juvenile discussions were provoked by everyone but Nick, he was simply reacting, whether or not you agree with his attitude is secondary to the fact that it is a response not an attack. So Chris didn't get any cred--hello this is the entertainment business...which is notorious for screwing over artists. If Chris hadn't learned this by now, hopefully he can avoid this in the future. But it seems like this is Chris's friends and fan's vein attempt at getting him some notoriety. Truthfully, I don't feel that its Space150s fault either, ideas are free, and they did attempt contact. Personally, I have been screwed over and know many other artists that have had intellectual property stolen. I don't agree with the loose terms for artist rights protection BUT that is a different fight and it is not in Nicholaus Goossen's power to change that --so lay the fuck off!
@Chris-you know, your post was innocent enough, it didn't seem like you were talkin shit, But when all your friends came to on your behalf you could have ended this verbal assault. shame shame. Did you ever think that instead of becoming a nemesis to Nick that maybe you could relate to him as an artist? Afterall, we have all been screwed over at some point.
@ Golan, who cares who is getting insulted, I will reiterate that they are the ones provoking it. And I am sorry, but you are lying to yourself if you aren't interested in hanging out with beautiful models and making money. Quit being such a hater just because Nick is successful.. But I will agree with your second paragraph.
@Workerman, keep your lame-ass opinions to yourself..."Grandma's Boy" is among the best of cult classics that revolve around smokin the doja (next your going to say Cheech and Chong, Dazed and Confused, Harold and Omar aren't good movies) --- I am just guessing that Nick wasn't expecting any of his actors to take home the Academy Award for this film (although I must say that Betty White smoking a bong is award worthy in my opinion--Golden Nugget Girls haha)
BOTTOM LINE IS THIS: don't hate, cooperate.... we are all out there trying to do the hustle in life...why take time out of your day to spread hate and negativity?? Does it make you feel better about yourself or do you just stew over it using all your energy to make yourself angry and flustered over a situation that you're not really even involved in?
love to all
A lot of the artists posting here have bios and lists of work that are similarly impressive.
I'mma be over here, jumping through a portal (onoez, I stole from D&D) and using momeraths (onoez, Lewis Carrol will hate me forevers) to dust off my HDTV... *coughproductplacementcough*
"Chris, no doubt your work was a huge inspiration for us. Thanks for pushing the envelope, and creating new possibilities. - Billy Jurewicz, space150"
O'Shea's fans not only continued to go after space150 but then started attacking director Goossen (who through his OWN admission stated he had nothing to do with the concept), like a pack of rabid hyenas.
Wow, really?
So while we SHOULD be celebrating two really kinda neat installations, everyone here (myself and Goossen included) have been reduced to nothing but name calling and mudslinging.
I mean, damn...can we not ALL revel in the fact that there is some REALLY cool shit going on out there?
Tell me this is not true (despite it looks like)! Can this thread go any lower?
NOW who's the idiot?
Isn't posting anything on the Internet an open call for discussion/criticism/critique/whathaveyou?
With that, I wholeheartedly laugh at the "keep your opinions to your self" comments. I also laugh at the defense behind this body of work; it's entertained me for the last 2 days. Snide comments, personal attacks? It really is a shame.
At any rate, the creative realm will soon be thanking the Space150 team for introducing them to Chris and his work... albeit in a perverted manner. *Good luck to all!
Telling Zach lieberman to retreat back to his hacking hole.
Telling Dr Woohoo that nobody will remember his work. Telling Ruairi Glynn that nobody gives a damn what he thinks.
Telling Adam Clare he's too old to be on the thread.
Generally insulting people's work and boasting about hanging out with models etc etc.
While it is commendable that you have realised you were in the wrong, it makes this thread seem as though everyone is attacking you without reason. Just for the record, there were plenty of reasons and I won't be editing this comment.
Could you please take a look at this recent Dutch campaign raising awareness about violence to ambulance personnel and tell me whether it's also a Chris O'Shea ripoff? Thanks for your input: youtube.com/watch?v=ybtEwjenRFY
The billboards in this discussion are purely augmented reality, in which they directly interact with the people (using their expression, their figure, ...) in the scene. That is an essential part, missing from the Dutch board (even though it is not only beautiful, but the public message it carries is also very powerful).
However, you have touched a good point. I am sure this is an interesting topic to discuss, and works like these and the discussion it invokes indicate that we are ready to discuss it. Besides, in this discussion it is beyond ripping off or not ripping off. It is rather about crediting, referring, ..., or at least that's what I think.
it's incredible how mr.Goossen actually takes the time to check the bio's and work of each person that comments here - a lot of this wouldn't be happening if he took that time to credit Chris O'Shea!