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37. What is Fuelly?
6 months ago
36. NYC trip
7 months ago
32. Lessons from 11 years of community (my SXSW 2011 talk)
11 months ago
30. playmobil
1 year ago
A lot of people missed my talk so I recorded it in my office as soon as I got home from Austin. It covers mainly moderation tips and ideas for building tools for more effective moderation.

I'll answer any questions below here on Vimeo.

(I used ScreenFlow on a second mac to record a iChat Theater session of my talk that was done in Keynote)

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  • Sharon Henry 11 months ago
    Thanks for posting this. I wish more presenters would record their sessions.
  • Matt Haughey plus 11 months ago
    Yeah, I've always done practice recordings of my talks before my actual talk, but they're often still works-in-progress and I've always told myself to record a talk AFTER I get home, incorporating lessons and feedback from the talk itself, but often I just decompress and quickly forget the talk and never do it. Today I forced myself to do it and I'll do this in the future for my talks that don't get recorded/rebroadcast.
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  • dalas verdugo plus 11 months ago
    cool ;)
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  • arielmeadow 11 months ago
    I have questions!

    1. Have you ever considered selling a "mefi in a box" community product? As someone who's got a 17,000-member community trapped on Ning, I'm jealous of your tools.

    2. "Late night weirdo problems": Do you notice issues on certain days of the week? (Mondays are highest drama for me, because everyone is coming back from weekend and wants to process/bitch about stuff that happened.)

    3. Historically, when you've dealt with people mis-using tools on the site, have you focused on moderating the behavior, or changing the tools to reduce misunderstandings/mis-use?

    4. How often do you remove users for being jerks? Not spammers or blatant trolls, but just contrarian jerks? (My community a clear code of conduct, but it's so hard to articulate "don't be a stupid jerk" into rules people can follow, so I'm always curious where others draw the line.)
  • Matt Haughey plus 11 months ago
    Hey Ariel, here are some answers:

    1. I considered it very early on but then realized selling software would put me in the software support business and that along with programming isn't my strong suit.

    2. We haven't noticed daily trends, but definitely we see trends through the year. We get a lot of shenanigans around holidays, I assume because people are stressed out about cooking a turkey/getting a dozen roses/buying presents. Mondays are our highest traffic day of the week though.

    3. If I understand your question right, I think we usually stick to moderating behavior.

    4. We remove users pretty rarely for being jerks, because like you said it's very hard to codify why someone is a jerk without a list of 10,000 rules. We talk to people over email and if they continue bad behavior we have tiered time-outs, of one day, one week, and then forever, and typically we give people the day off for something bad they said or if they're freaking out all over the site. They get a week if it continues and eventually if they still can't shape up, they may get the boot.
  • arielmeadow 11 months ago
    Thanks, Matt!
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  • Eva Amsen 11 months ago
    I'm also so jealous of your backend tools! Wordpress is lovely, but not really made for hundreds of active users.

    I also have (a) question(s): What is (briefly) the story behind the different sections of the site? Did you launch AskMe, MetaTalk and the projects/music/jobs part of the site because these were things that people really wanted to share and the front page wasn't the place for it or because you wanted to create some kind of structure? Did the request for these separate areas come from you or from the users, and was it worth implementing all of them, or could you have lived without some of them?

    -user 26272, who has grown up to moderate her own community.
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  • Mark staff 11 months ago
    Great talk, Matt!
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  • Matt Haughey plus 11 months ago
    Regarding wordpress, my hope is that someone sees this and starts making some plugins for the app that address some of the options.

    Regarding subsites, I'd say MetaTalk is the only thing I had to introduce myself completely on my own, and it was because I was tired of seeing metacommentary in MetaFilter threads (like "I don't like the size of fonts here" in the middle of a thread about someone's lego gallery of stuff).

    After that, definitely the requests for new subsites came from the community, and we'd discuss them to death in MetaTalk before launching them as separate new sites.
  • Eva Amsen 11 months ago
    Thanks!

    (And I also hope for useful Wordpress plugins... )
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  • David Glover 11 months ago
    I used to be a pretty regular MetaFilter user, at least in terms of reading. I would post comments every now and then, maybe one or two a week, but the site always gave me a kind of weird vibe.

    I finally figured out what it was when it started directly affecting me. The problem is transparency, or rather the lack of it. When moderation happens, it happens silently and without explanation - *even to the moderatee*.

    I can't remember the exact post that finally made me twig (nor can I find out), but I had made a comment on it, not one at the time that seemed controversial, or inflammatory, and neither was it any kind of spam. I went back a few hours later to see if I had got any responses. I hadn't. OK, no big deal. But then I scrolled up - my comment was gone. It had been moderated out of existence without any trace left that it had ever been there, even to me.

    The hardcore regular contributors won't care about this. But to those who only contribute occasionally - this is like a big red flag saying "you are not welcome here". It's all very well having MetaTalk, but posts of the kind "My comment was deleted" are usually given a response which can be boiled down to "wah wah wah".

    This kind of moderation is fine when you're dealing with spammers, but not when you're dealing with normal, ordinary people. The "benevolent dictatorship" model of moderation may appear to work, but you appear to be simply acting as a back-end filter to community moderation these days, anyway. This feels like pandering to some kind of democracy, and then choosing to ignore the votes whenever you see fit.

    I don't know whether you're even interested in attracting significantly more users in becoming regular contributors. Maybe you have enough. But this style of moderation leaves a bad taste in my mouth and succeeded in getting MetaFilter removed from my bookmarks bar.

    tl;dr: Wah wah wah.
  • Matt Haughey plus 11 months ago
    David, I'll agree with you that what we do with silently deleting off topic, offensive, or otherwise malicious comments isn't perfect. We came to the compromise of not showing comments only after considering the alternates.

    The obvious alternate is putting a line where your comment was that might say "this comment has been deleted by a moderator" and I've seen that on places like Gawker sites and Youtube, but when you make the bad comments a click away, you are not only still letting derailing, off-topic stuff stick around on your site but you are *giving it a permanent home* which leads to all sorts of consequences.

    In my ideal world, maybe members could see each and every comment that was deleted, and by whom, and you'd get an automatic email as the person that posted it saying your contribution was removed from view. But those kinds of things create a huge new customer service sort of avenue where we'd have to start engaging in about 50 new email conversations as people that disagreed would want to know exactly why their content was deleted, and when answered could appeal and ask it to be restored and I've spent entire days on dealing with a single user over a comment and I can't imagine the workload of dealing with them all.

    So the compromise is that we silently delete stuff that doesn't meet community norms and we have an active and large FAQ of what normal community behavior entails and there's a whole wiki of tips and additional info to keep people up to date on what the community norms are.

    Honest question here: If you got an instant notification that your comment was removed, would you have still be dissatisfied or would you have been ok with it? I know transparency is almost always a good thing, but if I imagined the site operating in the ultimate way I described above, I'm not sure if contributors to the site would be happier with moderator actions even if they were better informed about them.
  • David Glover 11 months ago
    I think you're missing the point a little. Or at least, missing my point.

    Ultimately, it comes down to what you want to do with people who are breaking the guidelines. Do you simply want them gone? Or do want them to stick around, but be better behaved?

    Currently, all you're doing is revising history, and hoping that eventually they get tired and leave.

    It wasn't a big deal that you deleted my comment. And I don't care that other people can't see that it was ever there. I may even agree that they shouldn't see that it was ever there.

    But *I* should know that it was deleted. And, even more importantly, I should know *why*. Maybe I thought it was important, but just worded it badly. Maybe it was just a typo. Maybe I misread the post I was replying to. Maybe I genuinely was being a complete asshole and deserved it. I don't know, because I got zero feedback. I didn't even know that I had been moderated, and I can't even remember what the comment was about.

    I understand that this might increase your workload, but don't you think that comes with the territory of running a "benevolent dictatorship" style community site? Your choices are - let the community directly moderate the site, or hire more moderators. Ultimately, won't better-educated users cause less of a problem anyway?

    How many people don't click the FAQ link? How many people don't even see it? (I was vaguely aware you had one, but looking at the front page right now, it took me a few seconds to find. It might be at the top, but it's buried in a Wall Of Links.)

    Maybe you email the FAQ to every new user, I don't know, I joined in 2001 and can't remember what happened.
  • craftastic 11 months ago
    This is a good question. I used to run a large community and built a tool for moderators (one of many) which let them automatically send a canned message (from a list of choices) to a user telling them why their post was moderated. All this seemed to do was give the user someone to start a dialog with (the moderator) about how they didn't do anything wrong and how they were being unfairly persecuted, etc etc. This was such an drain on the moderators and really made their jobs so emotionally difficult.

    It's funny because at first the canned messages were really "matter of fact" in tone and people complained about the tone and that the moderators were cruel and power-hungry. And then we made them super friendly with smileys and all and it still didn't help people's reactions to them.

    I think really it's a no-win situation. People are going to get upset no matter what if they are moderated.

    But I do think when I put myself in the shoes of a user, I'd much rather be notified in some way. I also think it's very important that the notification include something like:

    "We realize that it might not at all have been your intention to break any rules or cause any controversy and if we have acted in error, we hope you will understand how difficult it is to keep a community like this running smoothly."

    This way if a moderator does moderate someone who really just made a totally innocent mistake, you don't hopefully won't turn that person off to your site forever.
  • Matt Haughey plus 11 months ago
    David, if it's any consolation, your last deleted comment from a couple months ago was removed because it had a dead link (it appears you put in the html but forgot to paste in the URL).

    I'd say we're ok with the status quo of people emailing us to ask why something was removed but not yet ready to dive into emailing everyone pro-actively when we delete stuff during the course of the day.
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  • Franny Oh 11 months ago
    Matt, I've been a member since August of 2001, (I think you opened them up then for a brief time, then shut down new users for a while before implementing the $5 membership fees.)
    Though I don't spend as much time on Mefi as I used to due to work and real life, I'm still in love with it, in particular the benevolent moderation style that all of you seem to share.
    I've always wondered, what % of current active users (as defined by logins/reading/comments, I guess?) have been on the site for 1 year, 5 years, 10 years? I'd bet the participant retention level is pretty high, compared to what you might have projected?
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  • Kevin Kelly 11 months ago
    Fantastic talk, Matt. The challenges you outline parallel our experience in running the WELL in the late 1980s. All the community issues are the same, except we did not have the spam problem back them. But even at our peak we had only one tenth of the members Metafilter has, and then the WELL was eclipsed by the web. So hearing about the immense effort you give to garden, nurture, and cultivate your thriving community provided me great relief — that I didn't have to do it! You gave me a sense of what the future of the WELL would have been, and I don't think any of us running it then would have survived the amount of dedication and ingenuity it turned out it required.

    But I think you are correct about what is required and I got more than a few great ideas for improving our minor community around Cool Tools. Thank you much.

    Not related: I like how you inserted your talking head next to your slides in the video. That's a very effective arrangement. Is there a template?

    Your fan, a long-time, but mostly silent, Metafilter member.
  • Matt Haughey plus 11 months ago
    Kevin, I described the tools and process for making the video here:
    a.wholelottanothing.org/2011/03/apple-keynote-feature-request-easy-recording-of-your-talks.html

    (I've submitted the idea to Apple through their feedback form and via friends so I'm confident we'll see something like this added to Keynote someday soon)
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  • Kevin Kelly 11 months ago
    Matt,

    That's clear and ingenious. Thanks. (Another reason to migrate to Keynote, unless I can find a parallel way with PPT.)
  • Matt Haughey plus 11 months ago
    If you read the comments on my blog post, it sounds like with ScreenFlow on a mac, you could record your slideshow and insert your talking head into a PowerPoint presentation.

    I just used iChat because it was all integrated and worked pretty well as-is.
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  • Bre Pettis 11 months ago
    Thanks Matt! Really nice talk with ideas I'm looking forward to putting to work!
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  • Ironic Sans 11 months ago
    I don't run a community, and I rarely post on MeFi even though I read it frequently, but I attended your talk because I thought I might learn something interesting (sort of a nerdier equivalent of watching one of those cable shows about ice trucking jobs even though you're not an ice trucker; or maybe that's the nerdier equivalent). It ended up being one of my favorite talks at sxsw, and made me think about how I would approach the challenges you have. I thought to myself that I know someone who should totally have been there to see it, and what a shame that they missed it. Now I can point them to this video. Thanks. -David
  • Matt Haughey plus 11 months ago
    Thanks David! I'm a big fan of your work, you shoulda said hi after!
  • David Friedman plus 11 months ago
    I had planned on introducing myself, but ended up having to leave early. Next time we're in the same town, we should meet.
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  • blurb plus 11 months ago
    I should have flown to Austin for this alone. Thanks so much for taking the time to share this. And holy shit! Numbers! Congratulations on growing one of the best indie sites out there and keeping yourself sane doing so.

    I've long held that the software is broken (not on MeFi) with off the shelf solutions like Movable Type, WordPress, Drupal etc. for handling communities. I haven't played with BuddyPress, but for blogging, it's a shame that software that has been around as long as the aforementioned don't have a robust user management system built in is a shame. I think any CMS worth it's weight would have most of what you show here.

    I'm sure there are modules, plug-ins and extensions, but my feeling is that the software needs to have a robust user management system baked in. It's a pain, but it would make the internet a better place and communities of all sizes stronger.

    I think add-ons like Disqus and Intense Debate get a little closer, but you're still beholden to someone else's ideas about moderation and function.

    Everybody working on social software should watch this video.
  • Kristian Bjørnard plus 11 months ago
    The fact of the matter is, that none of the software you listed is specifically made for just “community” based sites. Thus the core of the programs aren't prepared for—and in my mind shouldn't come with—the tools to moderate a large cluster of people. However, Drupal, with a few additional modules and configurations actually gives you plenty of good controls over users and the moderation of their content. I believe there are even starting to be distributions of Drupal that will install and preconfigure everything you need, it just isn't in Drupal's core.
  • blurb plus 11 months ago
    Kristian, I think the real question is this: why would a CMS NOT include better user management tools and comment management tools in its core?

    p.s. We use Drupal on dooce.com and community.dooce.com, so I'm well aware of Drupal. I'm not so happy with user management. Needs a bunch of hacking to get it dialed in and still doesn't have all the great features Matt talks about here.
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  • Mark Parham plus 11 months ago
    very educational video i'm trying to learn as much as possible from people who know what they are talking about like you
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  • Maurice Kessler 10 months ago
    I'd like to thank you for posting this. It's a generous thing to do, and I can readily imagine how valuable I'd find it were I considering embarking upon the rocky road of forum administration.

    As it is, I consider it instructive to understand what moderators of forums — of any size — must cope with every day, which further suggests that lots of people should hear at least part of what you had to say in this video, if only to shine a light upon their own behaviors. Mine included!

    Many thanks for your effort.
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  • Awesome presentation. Makes me itch to implement a more comprehensive ninja-logging system for our backend.
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  • David Noel 10 months ago
    This is awesome, thanks so much for sharing your insights!
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