I think that English chap is pretty smart!

Hi Steve (& the rest of the Zacuto Guys)!
It's Jack Waldenmaier over at The Music Bakery.
As I said, I absolutely LOVE the look of your video.
Can't wait to see it with my music.
Although, I like this in-the-raw version too!
My best to you, Steve!
-Jack
musicbakery.com

very very cool and interesting discussion.

To answer the question about where I would want my stuff seen; nothing beats a huge screen in a theater (even if its just me and a few crew watching).
The way my young mind sees it; there are two kinds of content you can make, the kind that makes money and the kind that needs to be made, sometimes they overlap but often they don't. I know how to distribute content for free on the internet, but what is the model for making money?

Hunter, we are not saying which way is right way (theater, TV or internet), we are all just speaking to how we feel and the experiences we've had. There are many ways to make money with your video camera. You have to decide what it is you want. There is no one model for making money on the internet. Keep watching, we are going to be talking about some of these models in upcoming episodes. All of my guests have been great in really getting to heart of 21st Century “Indie Entertainment” marketing in every venue possible. Try to keep an open mind, realizing there are many paths to both indie financial success whilst keeping you integrity. Content is still and always king.

what was this shot on?

5 HVX200's, one of them on a dolly with a Letus Elite and Zeiss ZF 35mm prime.

wow, excellent job, i love the chill attitude with serious conversations. The 5 HVX200s made this quite nice to watch as well

I could watch you fellows talk all day. These are conversations I'm having with my friends and I'm fascinated by them. Thanks for the video.

I gotta get more toys.....

very cool. i agree with Collin, this is exactly what I have been talking about with my comrades lately and it is incredibly interesting to see intelligent gentleman talking about the same topics.

Love it! Brilliant stuff.. But come on. 6-7 minutes? It's ridiculously short. Just as I start getting into it it's over. You have be hooked and then leave me hanging.

Keep up the good work fellas. But please make them longer..

Brilliant discussion, I applaud you. I've been looking for a podcast akin to discussions like these, and I'm glad I stumbled across FilmFellas.

And I'm sure I'm looking far too into this, but I noticed nobody ate anything. I think someone may have taken a swig of wine, but your meals remained pleasantly untouched. Shame really, it looks delicious.

really great guys, you should discuss the new red releases and what that means for independent cinema in a declining economy. Will Indie be the new hollywood, now that people have become bored with the films we're forcefed nowadays. Will the accessibility of these new cinematic quality cameras pull aside the curtain of Hollywood? Obviously, being a redman, I believe it will. :)

I promise we will eat more next time. That was the idea but it's kind of hard to eat and talk when the shots are so CU. The food was all prepared by chef Joe Dugan and was excellent. The next casts menu will be spaghetti, salad, salmon and soup.

Jim, please dont take this the wrong way but cameras are kind of irrelovent to the concept of how to get indie filmmaking to any size screen and make a profit doing it. Picture quality is not why so many indie makers are having a hard time. And my show is really not a gear based show, it's more summed up by how to make a living creating entertainment, no matter where it is screened. I don't really know much about these new RED cameras but unless Mr. Jennard can start funding programming it's not going to matter much when we get saturated with REDS and have no money to shoot with them. Income is the key.

good stuff gentlemen. It raw talk about working in the industry. Very much like dinner for five. Its great t here different opinions and thoughts of people who are working in the industry. Keep it up. You should defiantly make it a longer discussion 7 17 really is much to shot, let us get in to it before cutting us off next time.

Iv been on the internet since the mid 90s. So I have grown up with it. Its only now that the quality of video online is good enough. The internet provides far more opportunities for people to know about and see your films. you just have to be a bit smart.

I own a ton of DVD from around the world, that if it was not for the Web i would have never heard of.

Making a good film is the goal never mind what medium its on. The film industry has to adapt just as the music industry has too. There are far more options then the big hollywood movie. which become out of date very fast. I remember it used to be almost a year before films whent from Cinema to VHS Tape. Now people are consuming things at a faster rate.

If you want to make films for young people you have to realize that you need a more multi-targeted approach. Cinema is only one part of it. The internet is on not just on your Laptop, its on your Playstation, your phone, your car...everything. It all depends on who your targeting.

Mo matter what type of film your making there is always demand for it. You just have to know the people who want to see it. And no where is better for that then the internet. marketing, distribution, promotions, feedback, its all available for filmmakers online.

Wow, nice movie! I'm actually feeling like 'I want to participate in that discussion'!

Right at the end you all laugh at Steven, I thought that was funny. I really liked this video though, being and indie filmmaker. Even though most of it was about distribution, and getting your film seen (both of which I don't really care about. I just make the movies because I enjoy it), I still liked the conversations. The information given was great even if it doesn't directly effect me. Good job you guys!

Fascinating. I keep an eye on this space.
From BanDfilms - I can see a curious spectrum of film makers. The chumps like me who don't try to make any money and chumps like you guys who are in it up to your elbows and feel you have to profit to continue. Forces tugging in both directions.

Great show, I love how video is getting professional online. With a show like this you guys are true pioneers.

I can't wait for the next episodes, and YEAH you're on iTunes!! Good job, it shows you know what you're doing.

Subscribing NOW.

[edit]
I don't get any hits in iTunes on 'filmfellas' or 'zacuto'. I'm allready subscribed here on Vimeo, but I would appreciate it if you would supply an iTunes link when it's on there.

itunes will be active this week. We just released on the 1st and with the holidays, itunes comes next.

Thanks fellas! This will be followed. ...And thanks again Phillip. Two out of two. Damnit, sleep is annoying.

I think the internet has opened up a lot of great ways to get content shown. Yes at first I was a little against it, weather it be someone taking my ideas or just being not a pristine way of showing content, but that has now changed. I've lived in Hollywood for a year and a haft now and I've been making movies since I was a kid. I want the theater system to stay alive. The internet will never be the same as watching a show with hundreds of people and all being on the same wave link. When chemistry like that takes effect it's unlike. That's the only reason traditional theatre still operates in an age where everything is not that, because there is nothing quite like watching a live performance in its own world and with many others at the same time. Like conventional theatre, the movie theater has its own world. However mostly due to good quality video and the technologies that are making viewing on the internet more pleasurable I've been opening up to it way more. I think the biggest thing is that it's a great tool and from my perspective I want people to know about me and I'm a filmmaker.

Very interesting guys. However, the food must have been TERRIBLE! Looking forward to future webisodes though.

Wow, small world as I've had these same discussions with my group of creative colleagues. Looking forward to future installments and what I am able to take from these and apply going forward.

good stuff...

As a young aspiring filmmaker, I am truly inspired by your video. I too want to live the dream...
I think web-based content will certainly be the way to go in the near-future, but, as some have already said, the idea of having your film playing on the big screen, even with an audience of 1000 people, is something I'm really looking forward to.
But I'll certainly start with a simple web-series or some shorts that I'll post online just to get my stuff out there.

Hey FilmFellas,
Great commentary.
I want to go on record as not trying to hurt people’s dreams, visions or stories. You need to do what makes you happy. If telling your story on the big screen is what you need to do, then do it.

I’m a businessman as well as a creative. I need to tell my story too. I just want to make a living doing it.

Many of you are asking for the business model for the web. Here it is. It’s ever changing. If I tell you a potential model today, it may need to be changed within 6 months. Don't look at what people are doing now, look at what you think the future will be and try to make it happen.

When I started in production in 1980, I started doing weddings when nobody was doing them. The I shifted my model when weddings took off to POP Fashion Videos and talked people into doing those. Then shifted to corporate video and so on. It’s a giant chess match. In the 80’s a business model was good for 5 years. Today a model is good for 6 months.

You need to see the trends which we will talk about in future episodes and adapt them to fit you, your business model and content. Be as creative with your business model as with your actual work. The business part can be fun too. But as I always say, for it to work, everything has to be in place including the business model, timing, luck and as always content will be king. It has to be great not good.

Just like your movie, let’s look at this as an exciting adventure that you are playing to win. More to come. Steve

I appreciated the conversation, although I wish it had been a bit more in-depth and lengthier--but I do have to say that the pacing of the editing was very distracting. The dolly shots were unnecessary and seemed just a showcase for the DOF lenses and slick glides. I would much rather just have a nice clean shot of who is speaking rather than such a fast pace of unnecessary cuts....But nonetheless I look forward to the rest of the series. You can always count on Vimeo for higher quality work.

Lovely discussion. One point which I hope will come up in future episodes is that the quality of the film, whatever the medium, is essentially based on the quality and talent of the filmmaker.

In the end, I don't see how you can say that there is a right or wrong place to show your work - they all have their pros and cons, but the true distinction between the films or clips published is the content itself.

Or so I hope.

This is all well and good with the right intentions, but at the end of the day, I bet everyone sitting around that table is paid handsomely by the very industry they claim stifles their creativity. The desire to progress to bigger projects is normal for any filmmaker - the issue is (and always will be) HOW AM I GOING TO PAY MY PHONE BILL...FEED MY KIDS...FEED MYSELF EVEN...Making films is not a problem for most filmmakers these days - if they have the desire and will, they'll do it. The only mystique the industry retains these days is through its cheque book.

I'm hooked.

I almost understood all!!

And i agree with you fellas, viva Internet.

I`ll be specting the next webisodic.

Saludos desde Chile.

VERY interesting. I just wish there was more... Oh well, I guess I'll just have to wait :p

As for the discussion on distribution: I agree that different content best suits different venues. An epic narrative deserves a theatre with a focused audience, and the AV tech to do justice to the experience being created. That's why people buy home theatres, or pay to go to the movies.

Something web-oriented like this still draws an audience in, but let's be honest, would the experience benefit from being on the big screen in full surround sound? No... but the ability for me to instant message my friend with a link to this page, or subscribe to the feed on iTunes, is huge.

So, for me it depends on what you're making. If you have something that doesn't just tell a story, but immerses the viewer and creates an experience that won't soon be forgotten, then a proper theatre is by all means the place to show it.

But if your goal is to simply entertain, or inform, then the theatre isn't nessecary. In fact it might well be a hindrance. It doesn't make sense to head down to the local multiplex to watch the news... if you just want to spread the word (whatever that word may be), the theatre setting is far to restrictive. Media like TV and the web bring the content to the audience, and that's huge.

Alright, the whole TV vs. theatres vs. internet thing goes way farther than what you covered, as you probably know.

For example, for TV, you often have people taping it for their own personal use (like, to watch it again). This means that releasing it on TV and then on a DVD isn't that great an idea.
In the theatres, you have more focused viewers, meaning that you will have people coming into the theater and taping it for their own use as well as use for other people (pirating). This means that releasing to the theatres and then to a DVD is great (since the pirated version has a lower quality), but as you mentioned, there are a few downsides.
As for the internet, the main concern you'll probably have is people taping it and then claiming that it's their own, since on the internet you have viewers that are the least focused (i.e. just browsing around stuff).
Ad revenue on the internet shouldn't be a problem if you know where to look (I believe YouTube has something kinda like that), so I don't really see where that argument is coming from.

I'd also like to mention that YouTube only looks "terrible" if you don't click the "watch in high quality" (or, if you exported it right, "watch in HD") button. It does exist now, but it takes a long time to load due to YouTube's ridiculous popularity nowadays.
I would consider Vimeo to be a more community-oriented site, where you can connect with a smaller number of viewers, and with people who are more focused (there's that word again). As in, Vimeo is more in the direction of the theatres, except as far as I know, with no revenue of any sort.
This means that Vimeo is the best option in terms of people not stealing your video, but it's not the best in terms of getting your video out there to millions of people and such (although the comments will undoubtedly be better on Vimeo :P).

That's just my view. Note that none of this is from experience, it's just speculation.
-Hedge

i like it...keep em coming..

I missed the product placement on the wine. Just what brand were you guys on.

What the internet has given us all is a place to showcase our work, get it seen, which before those days (I remember them!) you had to send out VHS tapes of your work. I haven't done a showreel in two years, people go to my website or my vimeo page and see my work. There is an immediacy and an autonomy which is something very special.

I will be doing a third film competition very shortly where people have to make a short narrative film with no technical constraints, just content specifications. To mount something like this until now would be a logistical and expensive nightmare. Now it is simple to do and opens up filmmaking to people who until now would never have been able to take part.

The cost of cameras and edit gear of course is as integral to this revolution as the internet itself...

Man, you're stuff travels like wildfire!!!

Just wondering, is anyone selling a Letus35?

Internet Television is the future—expect to begin seeing more internet media broadcasts directly into televisions fairly soon.

The issue isn’t internet filmmaking as much as it’s reinventing the media distribution plat-form. In all, it’s an exciting time for everyone involved in media production.

Unfortunately, the key players who will miss out will be the ones who lack foresight into a more cost effective solution.

Not to be overly dramatic about this topic but I see the whole world of entertainment and journalism as being in the midst of a revolution. The internet itself is very young 13 years or so I think- I’ll check with Al Gore... My point is that we just don't know what changes it will go through to help clear up the various issues that many of us are currently wondering about. Let’s take the movie theater experience to start with. That experience has certain criteria- a large screen, High quality images, Surround sound and control of the environment to limit distractions. So right now the internet does not really satisfy those needs. But soon enough it could. Netflix and blockbuster both have digital boxes for downloading movies to be viewed in home theaters. Home theaters themselves are now pretty affordable if you have a little bit of extra room in your house/apartment. As for the revenue part, I don't have the answer for that really but that should work itself out over time- it has to. The music industry is struggling with that but itunes makes money for artists even with file sharing readily available. So many films both short and long form come and go without being available to a large audience. The internet can certainly address that by giving many films accessibility and without a time limit. In the internets current form it would at least allow these films to get some notice even if they are not viewed in the ideal environment.

Many of the current commercial movie theaters don’t offer consistent high quality experiences when people do bother to go out to see a movie. While some people will always go to movie theaters I believe that many people will not continue to do that into the future. People have gotten used to controlling their theater experience at home. No rude people to deal with, no crappy sound quality and you can watch a movie at home any time it suits you. So could more film makers and television producers reach audiences through the internet but viewed in a home theater or a home television environment? My guess is that at some point in the next few years or so the internet will be seen on hdtv sets right along with cable and satellite television signals. I don’t think I am saying anything bold here that you all haven’t already considered but I am addressing the part of the discussion concerning the large vast internet audience verses the small movie theater only audience. I believe the forces of nature- i.e. financial realities, will decide which of those two worlds dominates going forward. I question the future viability of todays commercial movie theaters unless they are willing to go through technological changes to boost the experience for movie patrons.

Keep up the great webisodes, I look forward to the next one.

First, I want to thank the filmmaker’s who wish to continue this dialog. Great stuff!

The debate is ongoing and is a personal one as well. Let’s face it the goal is still to get noticed and unless you are a trust fund baby with deep pockets you still need money/funding to do decent if not exceptional work on the web or otherwise. The percentage of projects, shows, music videos, documentaries etc, which have really benefited from posting on the web is small. One just has to sift through an ever-greater amount of bad content to get to the real nectar.

In addition, the web really is not paying anything, unless you are on one of the upper echelon web shows/ spinoffs. Even then, the “rate” is abysmal in comparison. It all comes down to number of hits and viability there after. By no means do I think that the Tila Tequila show is quality programming, but that how she made it on TV via the web.
SAG is dealing with this at present under the new media clause.


As a DP, I certainly want my work to be featured in the best possible way. The ASC has been fighting this for years. Traditionally, that’s been standardized 24 frame film projection.
Unfortunately, the quality on the web generally in lacking…it is getting better but overall lacking.

All this said, I believe the web will soon be the exclusive medium (for most) by which one’s project is viewed maybe not for 10 or 15 years, but we had better (including myself) embrace it.

I'm of the same era as Steve, and in a smaller market taken much the same career path. I have to admit that maybe it's because I'm older, have a family,etc., I have become absolutely agnostic in terms of delivery system. I have never had a viral video, but I get the feeling, I would feel the same if it was watched on youtube or vimeo or any other relatively non profit based outlet. It strokes the ego, but doesn't necessarily pay a bill, unless it is used simply as your calling card for the next big thing. A theater, broadcast network, or corporate client ,on the other hand, is all about the profitability of your work.

This is where I think the industry has become very shizoid. You have tons of mostly young film makers out there experimenting, living the bohemian life, with very little care for the profitability, having the time of their life, and learning, and getting a lot of on-line accolades. On the other hand you have older guys who have been through the trenches trying to stay a step ahead of the 6 month industry cycle looking for the secret code of a business model.

Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem as though short form programming will ever be a profitable venture on any delivery system. And, although there is an indie film industry, it is so only in name. I'm sorry, but when most indie films are costing 1-5 million, with a smattering of semi known actors, it's no longer indie, as far as I'm concerned. Producers putting out that kind of investment are connected, and have a reasonable expectation/calculated risk for a healthy return.

In the end, I guess I still haven't a clue how to turn internet based content into a profit center. Then again, I'm not in such bad company. After all, the Tribune, and most news outlets with all its brain trust can't figure it out either.

Steve, et al: thanks for conversation; it's really useful to step back and speculate. And, perhaps time for me to review Thomas Kuhn's 1962 treatise, "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" in which Kuhn, a scientific historian, mused about the nature of paradigm shifts and the predictable, drawn-out process of design experiments, executing them and recording the results.

And, then sometimes... BAM! out of nowhere, a paradigm shift occurs! The theater vs. the living room vs. the computer/mobile device conversation exists inside of paradigm that we're aware of, we can describe where things have been, and have some ability to speculate about where it's going.

And, yet, we're still stuck inside the existing paradigm. Predicting the next Google's beyond our ken. Usually. But, not always.

Streamed, high-quality video is still trumped by bandwidth issues. I have a fast DSL connection and I saw a lot of transient delays while watching the webisode. I know that better codecs and more bandwidth are coming down the pike. But, it's not there, yet.

Movies and TV aren't going away. Sure, they're morphing into something that we don't fully get/embrace, but experimentation is the place to play. If you haven't already, check out Late Fragment (latefragment.com) a Canadian Film Board feature that offers the viewer the ability to "cut" their own picture. That's reinvention!

BTW, the webisode looks amazing. But, that cork in the wine bottle was, for me at least, a bit distracting. I kept wondering, "Are they not going to finish that red? What's the matter with those guys?!"

Cheers!

This is such an exciting time for anyone who wants to produce product and get it out there. I have been a cinematographer & director for a number of years now... mainly in television at the major studios in Los Angeles. In 1998 I got involved with my own HD feature and believe me it took so much $$$ because all the post had to come out of Sony HD Center. I used up a lot of favors for equip etc.... but when all was said and done. I couldn't get it distributed through normal channels. We won HDFEST 2001 and then the project sat on the shelf. Today... its a whole new ball game. Create your own distribution rules. Keep up the good work and I'll be following the series.

I actually enjoyed seeing the Letus/Zeiss footage cut together with the raw HVX200 footage in the same lighting set-up. Maybe you can throw a Canon 5D mark II into the mix next time.

Cool show!

Steve, thank you for creating this series and for your
comments here. I am in film school now (which I
started later in life than most) and while I learn the technical knowledge I have an eye on the future in regards to the sustainable income you mentioned. The topics you discuss are very relevent to conversations I have everyday. Like many others I would love to have a film on the big screen, but I would much rather go the indie route than get lost in the gears of the Hollywood machine. I look forward to hearing about the alternative business models you've mentioned and welcome your thoughts on various distribution channels.

On a side note...I had conversation today regarding the general frustration over TV networks canceling shows after a season or two despite being relatively popular. I would hope to see the internet become an atlernative to this process. There are a lot of good ideas and talent out there and it seems that there is only so much TV air time to go around.

Nicely done and great content, looking forward to more!

I would like to see some talk about the fact that YouTube now has HD... Are many of we the die hard Vimeo users going to start being pulled towards Youtube because of the large numbers of viewers?

One thing I've noticed is that different internet casting sites will give you a different feedback experience. I can do a short creative piece that may not have the best script, but that may have a very artistic look. If I put it on YouTube, I've seen more people try to pull out every negative and be, for the most part, uneducated film critics. Where as if I put it on Vimeo, there's more of a community of encouragement and support.

Also, web forums can be a huge place for feedback and education. I never went to school for film and video production. I went on forums and YouTube videos and tried to learn as much as I could. As I went out and started making shorts, I grew and eventually landed a job doing what I love. I've still got a long way to go, but a lot of it I can learn right here on the internet and apply it right away. Instead of sitting in a class room and getting one perspective, you can log online and get 20 different approaches in one night. Now I'm not saying a good education isn't necessary or important, but the internet is providing opurtunities to people that possibly wouldn't have them. If it wasn't for forums, I wouldn't know anything about DOF adapters, rail supports, matteboxes, etc. But after weeks and months of research, I feel I have a healthy understanding of indie film production.

Interesting...
Fame as priority.

I think this is a must for all film student to watch. I see so many students at my school think that oh If I have a bachelors in film I can get a job anywhere. And its not the case because all anyone gives a rats ass is about your reel. Your demo reel determines what jobs you will get because it is visual proof of what you have learned and what you can do.

There still aren't 150 comments about this video like the guy assumes.

I'm lookin' at you Steve Weiss. The internet is still a forum for quick ideas and jumping around. Going to the theater is an event you go to. They are still considered seperate.

This series has shed light on some of the areas I need to touch on. I haven't had any formal education on anything related to film. Finding tutorials on the internet has provided the education to get everything going.

Steve, Please make these first two webisodes (I like that word) available for download like you did the third one.

And finish your spaghetti.

I ran across the second webisode of filmfellas on Philip Bloom's website before I found it on vimeo. I find that the context of the screen makes a big difference on how things "feel". On Philip's website it had a black background that made the video pop out. That is one of the things I like about finding things in Vimeo's groups and channels as opposed to on peoples user pages. That being said, I think it is very important for "new media" creators to have control of the context that their projects are found in because it can either heighten the experience or detract from it.
As a side note, I have not been able to subscribe to FilmFellas on iTunes.

very smart!

filmed like the reservoir dogs conversation, very cool!

This is fantastic. As a 45 year old wannabe I can appreciate the voices of experience here.

Seriously guys, thank you for making these episodes. Us newbies benefit so much.

Thank you for all the interesting talking and advices.

NICE TOPIC!!..keep on working!

Wow this is a great idea, like dinner for five but for vimeo, aimed soley at filmmakers. Keep this up, for long as possible, thats all i can say....

Oh and way to go Philip, repping the UK! ;)

With such gorgeous filmic images and sound its a pretty compelling argument. TV is history.

The old model for viewing any content is radiply dying, and those who try to hold on to that old model will sink down with it. I can't BELIEVE that some film makers can't see what is coming ahead. The web will let you control your own destiny, brand, content, and any filmmaker that does not want to embrace that, really is not switched on in my book. Sure, still do regular freelance work for industry, but use that as a marketing tool to bring people to your own content.

This is really good. Thanks guys.

Thank-the-Lord, you made a decision NOT to eat!

Crisp white napery, HD, and brilliantly clean tulip glasses of ruby, red wine.

Good content too.

Great content for sure. But the food? No one's eating. It looks delicious. Eat up folks.

talk and talk!great!