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23. Darts at Lark Tavern - Albany, NY - 08, Dec
1 year ago
People playing darts at the Lark Tavern in Albany, NY.
Thank you for your patience, random serious people :)

This is my second video test with a Canon 5D Mark II, at a higher shutter speed this time, with the same Canon 50mm f/1.4. Once again, nothing interesting going on here, but an opportunity for me to describe my workflow in more details. Or lack thereof. Here are my first experiments taming the beast.

Update 12/11/09: Great news, Adobe's new playback engine, Mercury, looks fantastic and may just save us from those pesky proxies. Check this preview here: tv.adobe.com/watch/davtechtable/sneak-peek-at-the-new-adobe-mercury-playback-engine-technology/
Update 01/01/09: Augment the "Create Proxy Files" section with a comparison between several codecs and several frame sizes.
Update 30/01/08: Add a "About previews and pre-rendering" section.
Update 29/01/08: I found out how to auto-scale low-res proxy files to the project's frame size, and updated this document accordingly. This fixes one major issue.

The issue:
--------------------
As I described in my first video test (vimeo.com/2624143), the amount of data captured by the 5D is hammering both my computers at home (see hardware specs at the end of this document). At 1920x1080p 30fps, the H.264 codec used by Canon seems to push about 39 Mbps of video down the pipe. Ugh. While I can *replay* the clips nicely from Quicktime or Windows Media Player, I'm not able to perform any native editing from Adobe Premiere CS4; the first few seconds play fine, but it's a complete halt soon after that, even in Draft mode. Basic tasks like trimming assets, tweaking ends points, adding and previewing transitions are out of my reach.

While this could be blamed on the H.264 MainConcept codec used in Premiere (ffmpeg's x264 in WMP and Quicktime's H264 codec replay fine), and/or my specs, I'm doubtful I will be able to do any serious work on native 5D's video files at full-res anyway, short of buying a very expensive rig and/or a compatible H.264 hardware decoder card.

One solution:
--------------------
This is, however, not a new problem; people have been dealing with high resolution files in the past through clever use of proxy files and offline editing:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offline_editing
From what I understand, proxy files are alternate versions of your original clips, either re-encoded for faster access and/or resampled to a smaller, lower resolution frame size (preferably with the same aspect ratio). Editing, pre-viewing and draft rendering are performed using those proxies; once you are happy with the results, the final high-resolution movie is created by first replacing the proxies with the original full-res clips. Easy enough.

H.264 is not a slow codec per se, but the bitrate in the full-res 5D files is really high, at about 38.6 Mbps, about the same as a Blu-Ray DVD, more than a HD DVD. I'm not going to re-encode 1920x1080p clips using a different codec at full-res; a faster decoder would only mean more (i.e. less compressed) data. Not only would I end up with a huge amount of video but I'm actually not even sure either my hard-disks or Premiere could sustain that much. Storage is cheap, but at 1920x1080 30fps, this is still a lot of image processing going on. Resizing the clips to a lower 640x360 frame size seemed the way to go in my situation, and I'll describe shortly how I created my proxies and switched between full-res and low-res.

Now if that whole proxy switcheroo seems to make reasonable sense to me, why is it so tedious to set up in Adobe Premiere CS4? Granted, I'm new to Premiere, but from what I gather on Adobe's "About online and offline editing" help page, I'm not the only one to struggle:
tinyurl.com/9jzdhk

My workflow:
--------------------
Here is quick overview of my workflow:
0) Create proxy files for your original 5D clips (I'll go over this in a separate section, let's just stick to the workflow).
1) Create a new Premiere project. The "New Sequence" video and audio settings should match the settings of your original assets, i.e. your native 5DMII files, 1920x1080p @ 30fps. Check my detailed "New Sequence: Canon 5DMII native settings" preset at the end of this document.
2) Drop a few native 5D clips in the project. Important: do *not* put them in the timeline.
3) Switch to offline editing.
a) In the left panel, select all clips, right-click and select "Make Offline...". No deleting the originals! The full-res clips are now disconnected from your project.
b) In the same panel, select all clips, right-click and select "Link Media...". This is our opportunity to replace the now-disconnected full-res clips with any low-res proxies created earlier. Note that if you put your proxies in a separate folder but keep the same file names as the original assets, Premiere will only ask you the location of the first proxy then find the others in the same folder automatically.
4) Adjust the clips settings. If your proxies are not at the same resolution (frame size) as your original assets, select all clips then select "Clip -> Video Options -> Scale to Frame Size". Remember that your project's frame size is locked and needs to match the native full-res format, i.e. 1920x1080p. Your low-res proxy files (say, 640x360) will show up fine in the source window, but they will be displayed centered within a huge (and mostly empty) 1920x1080 frame in the composite area. Selecting "Scale to Frame Size" will make sure your low-res assets are "upscaled" automatically to match the project frame size. If you don't do so, expect translating, scaling or any size-dependent manipulation not to work; a 10 pixels translation would not move the same relative area once you switch back to the 1920x1080p clips. Important: this option can *only* be set on clips that are not in the timeline yet; see step 2).
5) Edit the movie. At this point, this should be smooth-sailing. Add transitions, move clips around, trim, preview, etc., until your are ready to create the full-res movie.
6) Switch to online editing. Almost the same as 3a) and 3b), select all clips, make them offline, then link them back to the *full-res* native clips. The previewing area should look the same, Premiere should not even need to apply "Scale to Frame Size" since your assets now match the exact same settings as your project, 1920x1080p. Again, if your proxies and original assets are in different folders but share the same file names, Premiere should only ask you about the first one and find the others automatically.
7) Render the final movie. Select "File -> Export -> Media...", pick your export settings, start the rendering queue and go grab a coffee. In Columbia. Note that I do not export my movie to full-res, I render to a more friendly 1280x720p frame size that I can safely upload to Vimeo and display straight from my XBox 360 to my HD screen in the living room. Check my detailed "Export Settings: Canon 5DMII Medium Res (H264)" preset at the end of this document. FYI, it took about 12 minutes on my laptop to render this very basic 1 minute clip above.

That's about it so far.

This is still a little tedious for a few reasons:
- Switching between offline and online clips is a pain: if my proxy files do not have the exact same file name and extension as my original files, Premiere will ask me to locate each one of them, one by one, starting from the original file location. This gets old *fast*. Keep that in mind when creating your proxy files (my proxies are .avi when I use the Lagarith codec, native 5D clips are .mov), and try to put your proxies in a separate folder.
- Since there is no guarantee step 7) will be your final step, any last minute tweak will you send back to step 3) once more to work with proxy files, then 4), and 5), etc.

Once you get familiar with this workflow, you will notice that you can skip step 2) and 3) entirely and drop your proxy files directly to a new 1920x1080p project. Proxy files are, after all, what you will be working with most of the time. Only in step 6) do you need to switch your proxies with your original full-res files.

Conclusion:
--------------------
So here you go. Name your proxies carefully and this should work in most situations.

I'm a big fan of Adobe products; from a software engineering perspective, I think they are quite impressive. Premiere is a great product in that respect as well, so that's why I'm surprised offline editing remains a little tricky. What I wanted to see in Premiere:
- drop my native 5D files,
- right click on my clips, let me point to proxy files (and make it easy for me to do so), or flag the original assets as "I need a proxy here" so that Premiere batch-queue the selected clips and render the proxies automatically,
- when it's time to render the final movie, present me with a checkbox that lets me use the proxy files or the native files *for all clips involved in my sequence*; i.e. do not force me to switch back and forth between low-res and full-res, on and on.

Update: Adobe After Effects seems to be doing it exactly right.
tinyurl.com/7lewou

Hopefully I'll be able to refine this process in the future, or not use Premiere, I'm not quite sure yet. Project files are in XML format, I guess one could write a script to replace proxy files with native files automatically. Premiere itself is scriptable directly at run-time, but I've been burned before by scripting on Mac. The Premiere SDK is available for free as well and an export plugin could be created to work directly on a proxies-based project and export a new project using the corresponding native files. I'm not looking forward to any of this :)

Good luck. Feel free to add any comments/updates.
A link to this article was posted to several forums:
cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=364
dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/140600-workflow-premiere-cs4.html
forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=30493944
forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&message=30493876
adobeforums.com/webx/.59b76728

Here are a few threads to follow as well:
adobeforums.com/webx/.59b755fb
adobeforums.com/webx/.59b75c51
elementsvillage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43135
forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&message=30298160

The rest of this document: creating proxy files, a note about previews and pre-rendering, my hardware specs, detailed Premiere export settings...

Creating Proxy files:
--------------------
Creating proxy files in batch using Adobe Media Encoder is pretty easy. Launch the program, drop your original 5D files, select the whole batch and pick an export preset. If you have not created a preset so far, just select one file, click on "Settings...", adjust your settings, save them as a preset and apply this preset to all remaining files. Start the rendering queue and go get a book.

What settings to choose for your proxy files may vary. Check my detailed "Export Settings: Canon 5DMII Low Res Proxy (Lagarith)" preset at the end of this document. Even if the native 1920x1080p clips were uncompressed, I don't think Premiere could edit them fast enough in real-time, even in Draft mode: I chose to downsize my files to 640x360 (1/9th). Make sure you keep the same aspect-ratio. I also picked a codec that performs well for Non-Linear-Editing: Lagarith.
lags.leetcode.net/codec.html
compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/lossless_codecs_2007_en.html

My nine original 5D clips weighted a total of 366 MB. My proxy files weighted about 273 MB. Not *that much* smaller for a frame size 1/9th the original frame size, but keep in mind that this is a fast lossless codec. I sacrificed some disk space for faster decoding, though I could probably go lossy. I actually would like to use a Quicktime codec to keep the same file extension; feel free to pass any suggestion. Check this thread as well: adobeforums.com/webx/.59b755fb

Update 01/01/09: since I wasn't satisfied with using AVI files for proxies, I converted one original 79 MB (16 s.) clip using several codecs at several frame size, and checked if I could achieve smooth playback from Premiere CS4.

In the tables below, each row is read as:
frame size | container type | codec (bitrate): size MB (size %) | smooth playback? | comments
where QT stands for "QuickTime format/container", AVI for "Microsoft AVI format/container", P2 for "P2 Movie" (aka DV, DVCPRO, etc).

Here is the original 5D Mark II file:

1920x1080 | QT | H.264 (38.6Mbps): 79 MB (100%) | no |

Here are 8 different proxy types at full-resolution, sorted by increasing file size. Premiere CS4 was not able to playback any of them smoothly on my laptop; 1 wouldn't even play (ffmpeg x264 codec); 4 looked pretty bad just by checking still frames.

1920x1080 | AVI | x264 (6Mbps): 12 MB (15%) | no | corrupted, won't play
1920x1080 | QT | H.264 (6Mbps): 12 MB (15%) | no |
1920x1080 | QT | Video: 46 MB (58%) | no | look bad
1920x1080 | QT | Motion JPEG A/B: 55 MB (70%) | no | look no good
1920x1080 | QT | Cinepak: 60 MB (76%) | no | look horrible
1920x1080 | AVI | PicVideo MJPEG3: 198 MB (250%) | no |
1920x1080 | QT | JPEG2000: 230 MB (291%) | no |
1920x1080 | AVI | Lagarith: 379 MB (480%) | no |
1920x1080 | QT | Animation: 535 MB (677%) | no | look horrible
1920x1080 | AVI | ACDV: 678 MB (858%) | no | look corrupted

Here are 5 different proxy types at half-resolution. Good news, 4 of them playback pretty decently and could be reasonably used as proxies.

960x540 | QT | H.264 (6Mbps): 12 MB (15%) | YES |
960x540 | AVI | ACDV: 31 MB (39%) | YES |
960x540 | QT | JPEG2000: 34 MB (43%) | no | degraded and choppy
960x540 | AVI | PicVideo MJPEG3: 68 MB (86%) | YES |
960x540 | AVI | Lagarith: 119 MB (150%) | no | very choppy

Here are 5 different proxy types at one-third-resolution. Not surprisingly, all of them playback smoothly and could be used as proxies, though the JPEG2000 one looked very degraded.

640x360 | QT | JPEG2000: 7 MB (9%) | YES | look very degraded
640x360 | QT | H.264 (6Mbps): 12 MB (15%) | YES |
640x360 | AVI | ACDV: 19 MB (24%) | YES |
640x360 | AVI | PicVideo MJPEG3: 40 MB (50%) | YES |
640x360 | AVI | Lagarith: 63 MB (80%) | YES |

And finally the P2 format (i.e. DV, DVCPRO, DVCPROHD, DVDPro100), which stands in-between as it horizontally compresses recorded images to 960x720 pixels for 720p output (i.e. the pixels are not "square" anymore but this displays just fine). I guess this format is bitrate-oriented as well since both 960x720 and 720x480 output produced the same file size.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV#DVCPRO
Note that converting to this format creates a folder hierarchy containing various files and both audio/video streams separated; just drop the video stream found in CONTENTS/VIDEO to Premiere. Do not expect to be able to read the .MXF video stream directly from Windows Media Player.

960x720 | P2 | DVCPro100 720p 30: 115 MB (145%) | YES | fine but scrubs fast
720x480 | P2 | DVCPro50 NTSC: 115 MB (145%) | YES

What to pick, what to pick? Again, keep in mind that this is for a specific laptop configuration, though the tables above could be used to sort codecs relative to each other. So far I had used the Lagarith codec at 640x360, but if I stick to this resolution I may as well use ACDV or QuickTime H.264 to save some space. More importantly, a QuickTime codec would make it much easier for me to switch between proxies and original assets, since they could share the same file names in separate folders.

If I choose a higher-resolution, say 960x540, I could once again use either ACDV or QuickTime H.264, preferably the later. On my widescreen monitor, the sub-windows used inside Premiere to display either the source assets or the preview area are about 660x370; a 640x360 proxy would display just fine.

For the sake of completion I created a few new 960x540 proxies using QuickTime H.264 at 3 different bitrates: 3, 6 and 12 Mpbs. I could not really notice any difference inside Premiere, they all played back reasonably smoothly.

960x540 | QT | H.264 (3Mbps): 6 MB (8%) | YES |
960x540 | QT | H.264 (6Mbps): 12 MB (15%) | YES |
960x540 | QT | H.264 (12Mbps): 24 MB (30%) | YES |

Note: if you are looking for a free batch converter, I can suggest Virtualdub, which I'm a big fan of, but I spent an unhealthy amount of time trying to get it to process native 5D files, without success. I've read H264 can be opened from Virtualdub, I just doubt 5D files specifically can. I upgraded my Haali Splitter, my ffmpeg distribution, downloaded the Quicktime Virtualdub plugin, no dice. This would either display a green screen and crash, or fail to render the movie properly besides the I-frames.
virtualdub.org/
tateu.net/software/
forum.videohelp.com/topic359864.html

About previews and pre-rendering:
--------------------
Update 30/01/08: Some people suggested I preview (pre-render) the timeline (or pieces of my timeline). I can, but this is certainly not the same. I quote the doc: "Areas that can’t be played at the project’s full frame rate are indicated by a red line in the time ruler. To play these areas, you can set the time ruler’s work area bar over the red preview indicator and render a preview file. This renders the segment as a new file on the hard drive, which Adobe Premiere Pro can play at the project’s full frame rate".

Such previews are pieces of your *timeline* that are pre-rendered *including* all effects. Proxies, on the other hand, are original clips in the assets list. What I mean here is that I can use the same clip several times in my timeline, with different effects applied: if this asset doesn't playback originally, even without any effects, then the corresponding two instances of this clip won't either. I can certainly preview (pre-render) my timeline for both instances of this same clip and achieve smooth playback that way, but that implies I need to pre-render twice (one for each instance), and that I will have to pre-render again and again each time I change the timeline settings, effects and transitions on those two instances.

On the other hand, if I use a good (fast enough) proxy, its contents will be used twice in my timeline and playback should be smooth for all instances of this clip, as long as I don't pile 10 effects on it of course. My point is: given the same amount of effects/transitions, it seems to me that a proxy might allow you to skip the pre-render step much more often. Pre-rendering works fine, I'm just trying to tackle the problem earlier in the workflow.

As far as I'm concerned, the situation is actually much worse than that: I can *not* playback or scrub my 5D clips in a timeline, even without any effects. If I had to use pre-rendering only, I would have to put all my high-res clips in the timeline, pre-render *all of them*, edit my transitions/effects, then pre-render again and again for each change, etc etc.

The problem for me here is that at full-res, the Preview format is just killing my computer. It doesn't provide any flexibility; previewing is essentially creating a less useful proxy file automatically, without the control on frame size and compression. That might be a non-issue on somebody else's machine, but on my PC the preview file format is set to Uncompressed UYVY 422 8bit. None of the few other formats are that much better either, the preview settings offer only a very small subset of the codecs you can use for a proxy.

I just tried again, dropping a single 80 MB file (16 s.) on my timeline and triggering a preview; it took *way* longer to create that preview than just batch-creating proxy files using Premiere's Media Encoder. Actually I had to give up after 10 minutes because Premiere had generated, out of this 80 MB file, something already larger than 1.6 GB. I just don't have the space/horse-power to store/edit files that size, but your mileage may vary. Also, let's face it, I do not need to edit at 1920x1280p; none of the sub-windows in Premiere uses anything close to that effective resolution. Granted, my masks would look a tad more accurate if I created them again a full-res frame than a one-half or one third proxy, but I could use a larger proxy for specific cases...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
My specs:
Laptop: Dell Latitude D630
- Intel Core 2 Duo T7700 @ 2.4 GHz,
- 4 GB RAM,
- Windows Vista 32 bits
- 64GB Solid State Drive :(

Desktop: Dell Dimension 8400
- Intel Pentium 4 @ 3.2 GHz,
- 2 GB RAM,
- Windows XP 32 bits,
- 150 GB Raid 1 (probably @ 7200 RPM)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Sequence: Canon 5DMII native settings
(matching the Canon 5DMII native video format as close as possible)
General:
* Editing mode: Desktop,
* Timebase: 30 fps
Video Settings:
* Frame size: 1920h x 1080v (1.0000),
* Frame rate: 30 fps,
* Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square (1.0),
* Fields: No Fields (Progressive Scan)
Audio Settings:
* Sample rate: 44100 Hz

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Export Settings: Canon 5DMII Low Res Proxy (Lagarith)
(matching the Canon 5DMII native video format as close as possible, except for the frame size downsampled to 640x360)
* Format: Microsoft AVI
Filters:
Video:
* Video Codec:
- Video Codec: Lagarith lossless codec,
- Codec Settings: Always Suggest RGB, Mode = RGB, Use Multithreading (that codec performs better in RGB, but YUV would do fine)
* Basic Settings:
- Quality: 100,
- Width: 640,
- Height: 360,
- Frame Rate: 30,
- Field Type: Progressive,
- Aspect: Square Pixels (1.0),
- Render at Maximum Depth: No,
- Depth: 24 bit
* Advanced Settings:
- Expand Stills: No
Audio:
* Audio Codec: Uncompressed,
* Basic Audio Settings:
- Sample Rate: 44100 Hz,
- Channels: Stereo,
- Sample Type: 16 bit,
- Audio Interleave: 0

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Export Settings: Canon 5DMII Medium Res (H264)
(matching Vimeo and XBox 360 recommended format, 1280x720)
* Format: H.264
Filters:
Multiplexer:
* Basic Settings:
- Multiplexing: MP4,
- Stream Compatibility: iPod (IMPORTANT for Xbox 360 compatibility)
Video:
* Basic Video Settings:
- Codec: MainConcept H.264 Video,
- TV Standard: NTSC (I'm in the US)
- Frame Width [pixels]: 1280,
- Frame Height [pixels]: 720,
- Frame Rate [fps]: 30,
- Field Order: None (Progressive),
- Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square Pixels,
- Profile: High,
- Level: 3.1
* Bitrate Settings:
- Bitrate Encoding: VBR, 2 Pass (slower, but recommended)
- Target Bitrate [Mbps]: 6 (original 5DMII is at 38.6, BluRay 40, HD DVD around 36)
- Maximum Bitrate [Mbps]: 10
* Advanced Settings:
- Set Key Frame Distance: No
Audio:
* Audio Format Settings:
- Audio Format: AAC
* Basic Audio Settings:
- Codec: AAC,
- Output Channels: Stereo,
- Frequency: 44.1 kHz,
- Audio Quality: High
* Bitrate Settings:
- Bitrate [kbps]: 224 (your mileage may vary)
* Advanced Settings:
- Precedence: Frequency (not sure about this one)

Credits

96 Likes

  • craig 11 months ago
    Well I can say I liked your video first of all It was well shot and the colors were fantastic! .Okay I have after effects cs3 and from what I'm hearing cs4 is slower . I have a dell 2.66 core 2 duo ,4gigs ram and a 256 mb nviadia graphic card . when I downloaded files from the canon 5d mk 2 ( not sure they were actual raw files or not ) I used edius 4.5 to edit with them . And although it was slower than editing hdv I was satisfied with the results . To me adobe(premiere or after effects) does not work well on hd I always use after effects after edius to add special touches to clips .Maybe you should try to download edius trial . 4.5 because I heard edius 5 has issues .Or if you can send me some raw files I can be edit them and let you know how edius performed , get back to me.
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  • Sébastien B. plus 11 months ago
    Thanks Craig. Here is one of the asset I used for this video, it's about 79 Meg big and 15 seconds long.
    drop.io/larktav
    I dropped it in Premiere CS4 but could not scrub the file comfortably, or even just replay it in the clip's source window for that matter.
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  • craig 11 months ago
    Okay I received the file and worked on it. Had no problems . When I dropped it in the timeline it rendered in less than a minute (40sec) I then added a black and white filter to 33% of it , That took about 39sec had no problems at all scrubbing the timeline. I had adobe premiere before when I brought my hv30 almost a year ago . Adobe was NOT proficient (could not scrub ,slow, could not interput 3-2-2 pulldown for 24p Then I did some research found edius PROBLEM SOLVED. Now 2 things 1. If that was raw footage which i think it was I had no problems. 2. Also I use edius 4.5 I don't know about 4.6 not sure. I think it an extension of 4.5 But that 5.0 has bugs that I read about with the canon 5d issue with a codec (edius forum ) great resource for info. I would try to get edius 4.5 it may take research to find it on a 30 day trial or other sources ONE thing is that drop ,io service free?
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  • Luke Humphrey plus 11 months ago
    Thanks again for the great info. One thing I'm noticing is that you can bring in the proxy footage first, and only before you do the final render do you need to replace it with the native 5d files (right-click on the proxy clips, Go Offline, then Link Media to the full res). So basically forget about the native footage until you're ready for final render.
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  • Luke Humphrey plus 11 months ago
    To clarify, I guess what I'm saying is replace step 2 and 3 with "just start with the proxies", from what I see thus far that works and might save a little time.
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  • Sébastien B. plus 11 months ago
    Thanks Luke, but that shortcut was actually in the document already, right before the "Conclusion". Maybe I wasn't clear enough. In the original workflow, I just wanted to make clear what online/offline files were...
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  • Luke Humphrey plus 11 months ago
    Gotcha. I was thinking also if you can find a good quicktime codec for the proxies, you could make the intermediate files .MOV also. Then you could perhaps just cut/paste the proxies into a different folder, then cut/paste the native files where the proxies were and never have to worry about offline. Not sure if it would work, but I'm going to try it because looking at the 40 or so clips I have I know it's going to be a pain in the a$$ to manually Link Media on each one individually.
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  • Sébastien B. plus 11 months ago
    Luke: actually I forgot to explain it in my document, but provided that you store your proxies in a separate folder and use the *same* file names as your original assets, Premiere will only ask you the location of the first one when you select all of them and click on "Link Media..."; it will find the others automatically in your proxy folder.

    This is problematic if you want to use AVI files for your proxies, since the original Canon 5DMII clips are in QuickTime H.264 format (.mov). I just updated the "Create Proxy files" section with a detailed comparison between different codecs at different frame sizes, including using some QuickTime codecs. Hope this helps.
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  • Luke Humphrey plus 11 months ago
    Excellent, h.264 at lower res makes sense and good to know about only having to select one file when linking media.
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  • Greg McKay 11 months ago
    You RoCk! Just tried the Proxy trick and it worked great. You may have just saved me from spending a ton of money on a new machine.
    This may take a little longer but at least it works!
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  • Stuart Allen 11 months ago
    thanks for the really detailed explanation of the process. Its time for vimeo to start rendering 30fps clips for us, I can see some staggering in your vid, not your fault at all though.

    try uploading to YT HD to get a better presentation, they currently have taken over the lead in HD
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  • planetMitch 11 months ago
    Thanks for the info! We've added this to the 5D wiki at planet5d.com We've got more 5D reviews/still/video samples than anywhere else on the planet. As well as some good 'how to' stuff like this
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  • The Second Gear Club 11 months ago
    Arg i tried proxies once more & got this error

    ppixhandleutilities.cpp-114

    memory load was 1.2GB then premier crashes (I have 800MB free of 3GB)
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  • colorchange 11 months ago
    Awesome information Craig. Thanks.
  • Mike Hannon 11 months ago
    Thanks Sebastien, this information is really helpful!
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  • JSI 10 months ago
    I just looked up the Adobe specs on recommended graphics cards (on their site) and the list that is shown on their site is very outdated. Many of the cards are not even on the market anymore. I have a PC with very high end specs and loads of RAM and the video from the 5D runs close to smooth, but not perfect. I have done numerous searches on the web for suggestions and have not found anything that shows a list of HD compatible cards that are on the market right now. Any ideas?
  • Rulex o 10 months ago
    Looking for the same stuff without luck.
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  • Roger Fichmann plus 10 months ago
    Dear Sébastien,

    Thank you so much for your tutorial. I was actually able to edit my Canon 5d MKII video in Premiere Pro CS4 using the original .mov files but I was unable to export the final video into a usuable format. Thanks to your tutorial I was able to complete this task very well.

    However I still have the vimeo 25fps issue and the video is not playing 100% smooth, see vimeo.com/3249503

    I'm uploading a 30fps version to YT.

    Thanks again, good job :-)
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  • Nick Layton 10 months ago
    Hi, I think this file looks spectacular, and from what I am seeing the new 5d in video is exceling in interior brightly lit scenes and city nightscapes. Is it my internet connection or are there still frames missing in this clip? Thanks
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  • Sébastien B. plus 10 months ago
    Nick: no frames missing, Vimeo is not that good at pre-buffering, and depending on your computer speed and internet connection, it might stutter. I would just hit "pause" and let the whole video load, then play it :)
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  • khanh to tuan 10 months ago
    I have a problem:
    Original footage was H264 in mp4.
    I offline'd them and linked to mpeg versions.
    Now I offline the files and try to relink to H264, but Premiere says it can't link, because the type (video) doesn't match the original type (audio and video).

    I tried adding a dummy mp3 track to the mp4, but it still doesnt work. Anybody know a workaround?
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  • Tom Warner 9 months ago
    have you figured out a way to preserve the 5dmii's 0-255 colors using your method? or are you just accepting the way premiere messes them up by reading them as if they were 15-235?
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  • Sébastien B. plus 9 months ago
    Hi Tom. I think I have found a way, though I need to double-check. I actually rewrap all my Qt/MOV files into MP4 files, thereby forcing Premiere to use its internal H264 *decoder* instead of Quicktime's. I'll write more about rewrapping workflow in a new 5DMII video I'm working on...
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  • caf025 9 months ago
    Sebastien, thank you for this thread I could not have made it without this thread.

    Thanks,
    Aaron.
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  • Joseph Weigert 8 months ago
    Hi Sébastien, you helped a lot! I create my Proxy files with MPEG Streamclip 1.2 (MPEG4, 1280*720 or smaller). I make the final render with Premiere into QuickTime format combined with MPEG-4 codec (70% quality). It's not the same if you choose MPEG-4 codec and extension, it crushes your blacks! Rendering into smaller sizes with Premirere didn't really work well with .mov. I take the high-quality .mov file and use Apple Quicktime software to resize is - very efficient!
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  • mikehedge 8 months ago
    thank you
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  • David Forway 7 months ago
    I 'm on a mac and just got the trail of CS production Suite. I wouldn't mind rather working with Premier than FCP seeing that After affects and Photoshop is included in the upgrade for thesame price as FCP studio 2.

    Aodbe media encoder for mac does not have AVi options at all and the small qt 640 x360 proxys don't play at all. you can scrub but there is no sound. Is this a mac bug.? Strangly before you drop it into you project it plays but when dropped into the project it does not play at all. I'd lige to stick to .mov then I don't have to link each file seperately. Did i do something wrong somewhere in the workflow, or is it the Mac version that sucks?
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  • Chad Johnson plus 6 months ago
    Awesome, thanks a ton for posting this information!
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  • Svarteld 6 months ago
    I use proxies with the same wrapper, .mov, at half size, with Apple Intermediate Codec. The proxies play perfectly even with a lot of adjustments in PP, and you don't even need the offline editing stuff - just copy and replace the original files over the proxies when it's time for rendering final output (keep a copy of the proxies). You can use the free converter MPEG Streamclip. Easy cake.
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  • Svarteld 6 months ago
    Mind, you need a Mac for the codec, though. It's free with every mac.
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  • THANKS! THANKS! THANKS!

    -Rasmus
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  • Philipp 5 months ago
    Thanks! Great tutorial :)
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  • meteor 5 months ago
    i read and read again the process..
    but still i cant run smoothly in preimere pro cs3
    i tried to encode the 5d mark2 footages in 960 x 540..
    but it still cannot rum smooth and then i tried lower resolution, 640 x 360. but it again cannot run smoothly..

    is there anything i miss? is it a problem about H.264?i already dl QT in latest version. or other method that i can edit in smoothly? MP4?

    sorry that i m a beginner..thx
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  • Chris Knight 4 months ago
    I thought I followed your steps perfectly but my video still ends up being very small so it leads me to believe that some how the small files are not being replace by the larger ones once I render the final cut. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?

    -chris
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  • Tinker Middleton plus 4 months ago
    Sebastien, thank you very much for this really informative post. It has been really helpful to me.
    I have one question however: When I use the exportsettings that you recommend it produces an MP4 file that will not play smoothly in Quicktime. I get a horrid green background, loads of violent strobing and then MASSIVE frame stutter.

    However, if I export the same file to Vimeo it plays beautifully (as it also does if I import it to a Premiere timelines. Also, if I persuade Windows Media player to open it then it also plays back smoothly (albeit without audio))

    Do you have any advice to solve the QT playback issue?
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  • Roy Bax 4 months ago
    I think I've found a somewhat new method (at least I think)
    When I follow your method I'm for instance importing 600x377 footage into a sequence that is 1920x1080. I still get slow renders then, i.e. when I'm adding a transition.

    The method I came up with was this:

    Make proxies of your files, in my example where making 600 x 337 proxies for footage that is actually 1920 x 1080. Make sure you make the proxies with the exact fps en pixel ratio as the HD footage. This is going to be the sequence in wihich your going to be doing your cuts, transitions etc. (Sequence 1)

    When your done editing sequence 1 (the low-res files) make a new sequence (Sequence 2) This is going to be the HD sequence so make it 1920 x 1080.

    Now place Sequence 1 in Sequence 2. You will notice that the footage is really small. Now is the time to relink your low-res footage to the HD footage. After you re-linked the files, select all clips in sequence 1 and choose clip -> video options -> scale to frame size.

    Do the same thing in Sequence 2, so select the clip (Sequence 1) and make sure "scale to frame size" is selected.

    This will make everything "full screen" again. The footage in sequence 1 will now be out of the displayable area, so if you want to make some corrections later on you'll have to relink to the low-res footage again.

    I find that this is a lot faster than importing low-res footage in to a HD sequence. At least on my macbook. I'm still experimenting but it seems to work.
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  • Marco S 4 months ago
    I am new to this so everything you said has me confused, could you make a video tutorial how you edited this that would be super helpful, I will be the first in line to take that course :)
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  • Giulio Sciorio plus 4 months ago
    Thank you for this post. I would not have had my video online if it were not for this.
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  • Sébastien B. plus 4 months ago
    @Giuilo: You are very welcome.
    @Marco: I don't know if a video tutorial is in the pipe, but I plan on rewriting it on a separate blog page, so that it's easier to read and I can use screenshots.
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  • Peter Miranda plus 3 months ago
    "Echo of Marco's words"
    I am new to this so everything you said has me confused, could you make a video tutorial how you edited this that would be super helpful, I will be the first in line to take that course :)

    ________________________________

    Thank you for the info so far, a quick tutorial would make the world a better place for technical spastics like me.
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  • Chris Dunne plus 3 months ago
    Hey mate, this is working great for me - stopped me hunting for export settings etc - thanks for a very well written tutorial.

    I have 1 small newb problem though, when I render the timeline the video plays back distorted at half the height and twice the width in the monitor making editing tough to say the least.

    Have you came up against this problem? Any advice to get in playing 'normal' would be much appreciated.

    Thanks
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  • Rene 3 months ago
    Thanks, worked like a charm. I did have a problem with the file replacing process so I had to do it manually one by one. For some reason when I would 'link media' it wouldn't replace all the files with my proxies just one, I just did it one by one. Im sure I just goofed up somewhere.
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  • Moritz Post 3 months ago
    Hi Sebastien

    A good tutorial. Worked quite well for me although i am new to premiere. I had the same problem as rene, in that i had to set each file individually while linking to the proxy or HD files. Thereby i didn't switch all the time and after a rough cut i just worked with the HD files (no scrubbing and exact previewing though).

    I am still pleased with the results which you can find here: vimeo.com/6546618
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  • Michael Holtzman 3 months ago
    Hi Sébastien. Thanks for this great tutorial. I found this video from another site while searching for 5D workflow with Premiere. When I saw your name I thought it looked familiar from the Albany group on flickr and then I saw this video from lark tavern.

    I have the same exact set up as you: Canon 5D II, PC, Premiere Pro CS4, publish to vimeo, xbox 360. The only exception is I am doing my editing on a pretty beefy desktop. The first project I actually did some editing on I used the pre-render technique but it gets old real fast having to do that every time you make a change or two. I searched through similar forums and links you have above, but this explanation is a great resource that really sums everything up.

    I got the proxy solution working perfectly tonight.
    Thanks!
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  • SiriNeos plus 3 months ago
    Thanks for your tutorial. I will try proxies for HDV files. Any recommendation about the pixel aspect ratio of the proxies files? 1? or 1.33?(like HDV)
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  • digerati68 2 months ago
    i went with the p2 conversion and so far it is working pretty well for me. than you!
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  • CJ Wolff 2 months ago
    You saved my life with this. It works great!
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  • Daniel Soderberg 2 months ago
    Hey, thanks for the good info. Just wanted to ask though, that link above that you gave another commentor (drop.io/larktav) is that a totally raw file straight from the 5D MKII? because I was able to stick it right into After Effects CS3 and edit it just fine (turned render quality to a quarter to speed things up a bit).
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  • Paul D 2 months ago
    Hi gang,

    Sorry, I haven't read the whole enchilada, but I get smooth editing in Premiere Pro CS4 with my 5D Mark II files now, simply by converting them to AVI's with Cineform's NeoScene. It's $129 on Cineform.com, or $99 at VideoGuys.com, that's where I bought it. Cineform's last NeoScene update (v1.3.6) even syncs audio correctly now. Maybe somebody has mentioned NeoScene, and if so, my apologies. The files it makes are huge because it interpolates the 5D2 video from its 4:2:0 8-bit format up to 4:2:2 10-bit. It's an upsample but it looks good.

    I JUST heard yesterday that somebody tried Canon's Zoombrowser bundled software to covert their 5D2 .MOVs to AVI and those AVIs edit smooth in Pr CS4. I haven't tried it yet. That would be GREAT if it works! And here it's been in the box all this time.

    Last thought... I did build a desktop to use for editing. It has chutzpah, but it does make Premiere run smooth. The specs in case you're thinking of doing the same. This is NOT a "brag about the rig" list, it's to show that you can build a Saturn V Rocket for less than half the cost of a gamer rig or a MacPro:
    Intel i7 920 processor
    EVGA X58 Mobo
    12GB Patriot RAM (AME has used 8GB of ram on many projects... Adobe stuff eats ram for breakfast)
    Windows 7 Ultimate
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  • Paul D 2 months ago
    Whoops, got cut off there.
    I use three drives:
    -WD 300GB Raptor for OS and Production Premium CS4
    -WD 750GB Black series for assets (was $64.99 on sale)
    -LaCie 500GB eSATA external to write projects

    One EVGA GTX260 video card

    Cheap LG DVD-RW, cheap card reader

    Antec 1200 case, Corsair 850TX power, Zalman CPU cooler.

    Total cost with rebates and sales, $1400 (OK, I did get Win 7 free from Microsoft last month). That's WAY cheaper than a Mac Pro, less than half (I like Macs, just can't afford them).

    Don't buy a premade gamer rig, you'll pay for expensive video cards, and Premiere does NOT leverage the GPU yet. However, Adobe says CS5 WILL! THAT will mean smooth video! But you need a supported video card, and the cheapest will be the GTX285 which is CUDA enabled. All other cards supported are the Quadro series, way out of reach, but the 285s WILL allow Pr CS5 to eat GPU. This is great news, along with TWENTY-FOUR P ON OUR 5D2'S! COMING IN 2010!
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  • vyle-art 1 month ago
    thanks so much for taking the time to do that explanation! Saved my life, I was starting to panic with my 7D.... I applied the same workflow, with modified settings for the 24p format, works like a charm.
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  • Janix Pacle 30 days ago
    a lot of great info! helps me a lot in rendering in PP! Thanks!
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  • Anderl 10 days ago
    Thanks, this helped me a lot to do my first video.
  •  
  • ThorM 6 days ago
    I'm not a religious man, but God bless you for this post! You have no idea! I signed up to vimeo just so that I could post a comment here. Well done. Bravo.
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  • Sébastien B. plus 4 days ago
    Thanks guys.

    Update: Great news, Adobe's new playback engine, Mercury, looks fantastic and may just save us from those pesky proxies. Check this preview here: tv.adobe.com/watch/davtechtable/sneak-peek-at-the-new-adobe-mercury-playback-engine-technology/

    I just upgraded my desktop to Windows 7 and two 160GB Intel X25-M Solid State Drive. This provides about 230MB/sec on read, twice as fast as my previous drives, two reasonably zippy 300GB Hitachi UltraStar at 15,000 RPM on a dedicated SAS controller. Now it's not quite recommended to put SSDs in RAID0 just yet, but you can picture the bandwidth :)

    I still have two Intel Core Duo E8500 CPU @ 3.16 GHz. Playback of full-frame 1080p AVCHD is very smooth from Windows Media Player 12, which reads Quicktime files automatically (and much better). However, this didn't help Premiere Pro much, playback is choppy at best, and no chances editing. More CPU power would help, but at this point it's pretty clear the next video engine (CS5?) will change the game by making much better use of your GPU.
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  • Martin Anderson 3 days ago
    Those are very useful tips there! As an amateur I always had problem with HD videos editing, since I am still using an old computer that's not even Corel 2 Duo cpu... There for I am still using Premiere pro 2.0, which works perfect and has HD edition as well.. as for the encoring, I am not that good with the codecs.. The only problem that I encountered is that, I tried to create Proxy files using an external video converter, works a lot faster then using Premiere's encoder, but when I try to link it into Premiere, it gives me error saying that the original clip was created with only one channel of audio.. I tried to convert the videos with only one audio channel.. still the same, so I had to use Premiere's encoder, which its as slow as i render the same file, no matter what the output resolution is.. Note that my camera is Canon 500D, 5D MarkII its obviously a lot better than mine, but how can I solve the audio channel problem when i was trying to create proxy files? If I could solve that problem then I'd be able to save a lot of times, since the external video converter works as 10 times faster than Premiere encoder, and all I need for proxy files is for the faster preview right?

    If you could help me out with this I would appreciate a lot!! Thanks!

    PS: My desktop computer is AMD Athlon 3000+ 1.81Ghz, 1.5 GB or ram, ATI Radeon 256MB graphic card....

    I got this computer back in 2006.. still don't have any budget to get a new one..
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