Thanks for the comments, there are adjustments for the sharpen, remember that the original images are 2.5K size, and the 1920x1080 is a reduction.

Feel free to ask and I will see if I can answer.

That's in the plans, but since its a True RAW recording camera the de-Bayer adjustments, chroma matrix values, light type used, and any UV or IR filters added can give a wide range of results, my own taste in color balance vs. noise and sharpness should not bias you one way or the other in your evaluating the potential of the camera. So you need to take the de-Bayer software's character into account when making judgments about the results since you will not get the same results from two different programs unless they both use the same SDK or such and have identical code and adjustments. True RAW has no fixed look for the most part, although the dyes in the Bayer filter and the dynamic range do have some trends. Another thing to consider is the lens used, as it has in impact on the resolution and de-Bayer adjustments so can have an impact on how visible blemishes are and such, you can get various effects by using a very sharp lens and less anti-OLPF sharpen, or a softer lens and more strong anti-OLPF sharpen. You can check back later and see what I have added here as I have many lenses to test before I get into more serious filmmaking.

Untill now I have not been able to show any of the results of my de-Bayer program development as Acam dII (tm) did not answer my email(s) about showing my results of processing their DNG on my web site (similar for SI-2K (tm), Sumix (tm), Kinor-2K (tm), Aaton (tm), and ARRI ALEXA (tm)). Aaton (tm) and Sumix (tm) at least answered my emails, but did not have an DNG (RAW) I could process and show.

Now that I can shoot my own DNG with the KineRAW-S8p (tm) I can use those as examples of various de-Bayer options and to show how the software and camera work together in True RAW workflow.

The KineRAW-S8p is a G4 camera (depending on how you count the prototypes) and I have been working with Kinekinity.com (sm) for about three years processing their camera's test frames in my de-Bayer software as the camera design evolved to its current well developed state. So people should not thing this is something that popped as a copycat camera, work on it started before HDSLR had 23.967fps, it was developed as a true replacement for motion picture cameras, not a camcorder made to look like, or be marketed as, a Digital Cinema Camera.

I'm glad to have been some help with processing tests along the long and winding road that has taken them this far, and also glad now that I can shoot True RAW data myself to help tune my de-Bayer software for maybe better results from their and other DNG based cameras.

I hope that people reading this who are interested in using such a Digital Cinema Camera let Kinefinity.com (sm) know of their interest to encourage their going into production before too long so that their is an affordable alternative to the 8bit block artifact compressed HDSLR for low budget and micro budget filmmakers around the world. With True RAW CinemaDNG workflow those handicaps to young filmmakers works are banished forever. As 35mm movie film production fades into history, I would like to see an alternative that is not worse but only better... The DNG is a digital negative that can be re-processed capturing 100% of the sensor data for use now and by future generations from the archived camera frame files, unlike REDCODE (tm), etc., it is a fully open and 100% documented file format usable by any camera or software developer, so does not depend on a single source that may not be there in the future or can later charge license fees.

Thanks for the complement, its a joy to get film like results from the 12bit RAW data in the CC grading commands of my freeish NLE that is part of my DI system.

I was outside last night shooting some anamorphic footage with my Brother using a 16mm Elmo scope adapter with standard movie theater 2x squeeze, using the KineRAW-S8p (tm)'s Cineon (tm) standard 1828x1556 pixel format, that is the standard for Panavision (tm) 2K film scans. The prime lens was a Angenieux 26mm f/0.95 used wide open.

I made a workprint and synced the sound to check and it looks like it could work, although the lens being stopped down would improve the sharpness, I wanted to show the anamorphic flairs and out of focus vertical ellipses of light. I hope to do some more of that and post a short demo real for the anamorphic mode before too long. I'm also putting together another flat lens demo of shots I have made before and maybe a few new ones, so check back or email me and ask what's new.

If you want some uncompressed frames you can email me, I have gotten some requests already for that. I looked at the Vimeo version play on my Brother's 1920x1440 monitor and I can see some losses of fine detail and some banding that are not there in the uncompressed frames.

I use 48bpp uncompressed for the DI so there are no bands at that color depth that you can see. The camera is 12bit data, so you don't get histogram gaps unless you shoot at the highest EI/ISO and grade the contrast hard.

I can send you a photo of the camera if you email me, I also posted two photos on DVXuser, but you need to google, DVXuser Dan Hudgins, and KineRAW to find that as I am not allowed to put links on Vimeo (?). You will need to register and log in there I think to see the photos, or you can email me and I can send two.

Its better to email me than to PM since I may not sign in here frequently.

About the price, that is up to Kinefinity (tm) the makers of the KineRAW (tm) cameras, I told them people were asking and they said maybe about 1/4 the price of the S35 model, so that would maybe be between $1750 and $2000, but the currency exchange rates vary so by the time you order there may be some flux. If they could put a single LARGE order in with the factory they can probably get a price break and maybe pass the savings on to all the buyers, so let them know you have an interest and try to organize a volume purchase and maybe that way everyone can get a discount. Its hard to make something like this in small quantities and keep the price down, you understand that.

The production camera is said to have a re-design that will make it smaller, but it allows for side-by-side 3D stereo shooting as the case is narrow and all the connectors are on the back and top.

It has HDMI 1280x720 live video viewfinder with zoom that can move around both when not shooting and while shooting, and while in replay so you can check the follow focus and such before you move to the next setup. It records to SSD and you can swap those, or dump to a notebook HDD, like 500GB or 1TB in the other slot in the back. You can dump single shots, or all of them, and you can also delete shots one at a time or all of them in the replay mode. It has SMPTE time code that is saved with the Date+TOD in the DNG tag 50740 meta-data and that can be burned into the processed frames so you can see it while editing, or transferred to DPX files Date+TOD and SMPTE time code fields for reading by standard DI systems.

The S35 and S16 modes cost more because they are to support dual mode recording, CinemDNG, and Cineform (tm) and the Cineform (tm) license adds some cost as does the extra processing boards, so the S8 will draw less power and be smaller and lighter weight in addition to working with lower cost lenses for some resolutions.

My email is at the top of each page at my web site, you can google DANCAD3D to find my web site where the software that was used to make this demo reel is a free or freeish download (the de-Bayer program is free).

Please put 'Vimeo user wants uncompressed frames and camera photos" in the subject line of your email. You can also contact Kinefinity (tm) directly through their web site contact information for questions about the camera specs which may change a bit from the prototype I'm using for generating test data and doing lens and de-Bayer tests.

Its great that you have an interest, I suggest that you contact the camera maker directly by email so that they can gauge the interest in the camera.

S-Log is something Sony (tm) came up with to hide maybe some of the noise in their camcorders by adjusting the levels in the Kodak Cineon (tm) log files used in film scanners that use 90 code values per f/ stop with an black offset of +95.

While it might be possible to make DPX files from my programs in S-Log, I don't see any reason to do so, as Kodak Cineon (tm) Log files are in common use and their levels are standardized at 18% midtone 470, 90% white at 685, black at 95 and so on, with LAD being 445.

The need for log files was because of the cost of harddisk space so Kodak used 10bit (bpc) data format (30bpp).

Today hard disk space is much lower cost, and 16bpc files can be used which have 64x the image tonal detail and can be graded from monitor gamma results without the banding issues that 10bpc files would have.

I prefer to use 48bpp TIF files full range in my DI system because you can look at them on a good CRT monitor without the need for ANY LUT which reduces confusion and issues with color matching and calibration that come up with log files because of the need of look up tables in order to view the log files on a monitor, the TIF are already at monitor gamma and so do not need any lut and the errors that they introduce.

I have not calibrated log output yet, although I have support for it in my programs. I could convert the current grade templates into a film log file but soft clip has already been applied so there would not be any super white data as that has already been moved down to code 685 as I would never want to clip the highlights in my grading and can see no reason why anyone else would want to as well, if you can tell me why please do so.

If the soft-clipped data is output to 16bpc Cineon (tm) Log files, there is 64x the grading range over 10bpc files, and so the curve at the top in the soft clipped region could be adjusted withing normal needs and then some without banding issues encroaching.

I view both Cineon (tm) Log and Sony's S-Log as being something that are obsolete with today's lower cost storage and a source of confusion and mis-matched color transfer between programs due to the need for various viewing LUT.

You can of-course de-Bayer the DNG files in any software you like, but the results will not look like the ones you see in my demo as those are the result of using my programs. Its not so much the camera that gives the final look, but the way he camera and de-Bayer software look together.

I looked at the chroma vectorgram and did not oversaturate the images to the point of clipping for the most part except for the red flowers a bit, the increase in saturation is linked to the mid-tone contrast as it would be in 4th generation film, and is part of the 'film look'. I would normally grade the images flatter to show the wide dynamic range of the camera, but the people at Kinefinity.com (tm) commented that I was making things too flat, and wanted me to make the results pop more, so I used a heaver S-curve on these images, any clipping you see may be due to your monitor or video card as these are full range images, not ITU 16-235 limited images.

The de-Bayer filters need to be re-adjusted and the noise reduction re-applied if I was going to make a low-con version, and the best results are obtained by grading direct from the DNG and not from an S-Log DPX file as the area filters need to act on the raw data not some white balanced version.

This is a new form of grading and works in ways that are not tied to obsolete transfer curves as far as my programs are concerned. I may have DNG calibration frames on my web site at some point, but I am waiting for some firmware changes to the camera before I re-do those as there is some effort involved in making the calibration frames and their calibrated color correction templates and the matching look files for the camera's viewfinder.

The order of operations is:

1) Make linear TIF from DNG
2) Grade the linear TIF to make another TIF
3) Grade the TIF made in step 2 for the second color pass correction to make up for the EDR (Extended Dynamic Range) processing.
4) Resize and letter-box.
5) Re-filter the chroma and luma after resize
6) Apply temporal noise reduction

Steps 1 to 5 are done on a keyframe before processing all the frames in each shot or group of shots. Step 6 is done on the color corrected shot after it is the final size and graded for monitor gamma.

If the grading is done out of order, it will impact the quality of the end results.

You may do better with the Cineform (tm) compressed cameras S16 or S35 if you are into broadcast formats like S-log.

It may depend on what country you are in, there are stages to the product release as I understand it. You best bet would be to email the Kinefinity (tm) directly and ask them. As I understand it they are getting some S35 put together for field testing. As you know its hard to set an exact date as firmware and software need to be tested and they need to get together a volume order for the factory, so the more people that show a serious interest in each model by contacting them, the better maybe they can develop plans. My demos here are demos of my de-Bayer software (along with lens tests for an up-coming project), I'm just using the S8p to generate sample data to exercise my DI system with at this point. While doing that I am letting them know about any issues I find and they have sent me some firmware updates to try out. Are you interested in DNG workflow or Cineform (tm) workflow?

I can't say April because there are unknowns, you can talk to them, but that was the last target I heard, if you are set in stone to start in May, it would probably be some kind of risk to depend on shipment of a production camera. You might ask them if you could work something out for a pre-production camera as additional field testing should be done, but knowing that there might be some issues, as there are with film labs scratching negatives and such, its best to shoot some coverage and protection even when working digital, dump the shots on each break, and make at least two backups.

The video above was made with the KineRAW-S8p (tm) not the KineRAW-S35 (tm), the target price for the S8 (tm) is about $2000 or less as I understand things.

The S8 (tm) as about 11 1/2 stops dynamic range, I measured something close to that so its not just the number off the mfg's spec sheet. You subtract 6 stops needed to get 90% white to 2% black, and the bottom three bits have some noise, so that gives you three EI/ISO at the top end that are useful for normal shots.

Specs on the S35 vary as they make changes all the time, they seem mostly concerned about Cineform (tm) for that model right now. Cineform (tm) is a wavelet compressed file format similar to REDCODE (tm).

The samples above are taken from uncompressed DNG workflow, and as I have said several times show degradation from being compressed for showing on Vimeo, the conversion from uncompressed 48bpp TIF files to MPEG4v2 added banding and blunting of fine details that remove some of the beauty of the original uncompressed images.

I have sent some of the BMP made from the original de-noised graded TIF to Vimeo viewers so far. If someone has a 10bit monitor and graphics card I might be able to send TIF frames, but they are so large I can only email one at a time, and not all viewers support 48bpp TIF. The BMP are OK for normal computers as they are limited to 8bits anyway, the BMP are just the top 8 bits from the TIF, otherwise the look the same on a normal computer's 8 bit graphics card and monitor. If you look at the images the monitor should be at least 1920x1080 so you can set 1:1 pixel viewing (100% or Original size). If you view resized that will degrade the images quite a bit in some cases.

The S8 (tm) camera has a larger pixel count than the current S35 camera in the DNG recordings, 2592x1940 vs. 2048x1080. That oversample can improve the results since it decreases the de-Bayer artifacts and the reduction to 1920x1080 letterbox smooths the image tones and reduces the "video" noise.

The S8 can also shoot an oversample for 16:9 ratio, its a bit narrower than the 2592x1104 Ultra-HD 21:9 mode.

The S8 oversample is close to ARRI ALEXA (tm), ARRI ALEXA (tm) shoots 2880 pixels wide for 1920 wide use, and the S8 shoots 2592 for 1920 wide use, so 2880-2592 is just 288 pixels smaller.

The S8 was designed to be a low cost True RAW Digital Cinema for making movies for theatrical release and has two wide screen shooting modes, 2592x1104x12bit@23.976-24.000-25.000fps, and 1828x1556x12bit@24.000 to get Panavision (tm) anamorphic 2:1 squeeze 35mm release prints, or for crop to 2048x858 for DCP projection. It also supports 2048x1080 for DCP 1:1 pixel with no oversample, same as the S35, which is cropped to 2048x858 or 1998x1080 in the DCP projector in digital theaters.

You should understand that while the results of fully 100% uncompressed DNG workflow can be outstanding, the data volumes and processing times can be large and long. There are real time DNG workflows on high end DI systems, but you would need a budget more than the camera cost to use those probably. My freeish DI system should be run using at least 12 junk PC computer's, one for audio editing and playback that is interlocked to another PC running my NLE/CC/MIX DI program by way of SMPTE time code (over the serial port to MIDI port on the other computer so some boxes are needed between the computers) Those two computers make up the editing, grading and mixing part, then you should have several, perhaps 10 or more, additional computers for finish quality de-Bayer which can take 90 seconds or more per frame total processing time, depending on the filter settings. The render computers can be server blades or just junk computers like old PIII's with the mother board changed to a low cost single core P4 board. If you process the data as it is shot, by the time production wraps you can have most of the DPX ready for sending out to have the 35mm printing negative done, or you can use my DIY film recorder program DANCINEL.EXE (tm) to make 35mm release prints one at a time, like a Cinevator (tm) but with only the about $750 cost of the print stock plus maybe $0.05 per foot for processing (you need to work a deal with the lab to bring in all your 2000' reels at once for processing to get a discount, etc.)

If you want the camera by May, I would talk to Kinefinity (tm) about that there is an email on their web site. As they say, "the squeaky wheel gets the oil".

Like I said, you need to ask them about the shipment dates, and yes, if you have money tied up, it might be better to have the cameras in your hands before you commit.

Yes the sensor in the KineRAW-S8p (tm) is very flexible in how it can be programed, the firmware is not finished yet but right now it can shoot from 1fps to 220fps, and from 2592x1940 down in size depending on the frame rate and aspect ratio. I have an active line doubler in my de-Bayer program that can make images 4x their pixel size so that can blow the images up and then they can be scaled down to 1920x1080 letter box or DVD size 720x480 etc. I was thinking of using four way split screen for things like skate boarders to get a higher sample rate per unit of screen area as well, my free de-Bayer program has RGB-to-RGB opticals that can composite images as well as do skip-frame (for 48fps and 72fps modes to reduce rolling shutter) Chroma-Key and so on. I'm too busy now but if you can organize a open source port of de-Bayer code to the Nvidia Cuda board(s) that could result in a free solution to real-time de-Bayer of DNG frame sets giving a fully uncompressed solution as an alternative to the blocked-up 8bit HDSLR.

This thing shoots at data rates up to about 108MB/s so the first thing you will say when you get one is "I need to buy some more TB hard-drives". The second thing you will probably say is "I glad I got this, the images are stunning."

The more shots I make the better I am able to predict what I'll get after grading, so I hope the reels will look better as time goes on. Also you need to learn what f/ stops your lenses work at and how the de-Bayer settings work with each lens under various light levels, but that part of being a DP, knowing what your equipment can do, and then using its quirks to your advantage to get that special 'look' that makes people say Oooo in their mind.

It will be great to see what other filmmakers can get when the cameras are out. Ever since I saw the 'Drake Camera' footage (google "Drake Camera") I have wanted an uncompressed recording camera to shoot with. Even though the drake was only 1280 and did not have good color it was so crisp and alive looking. I've spent the last three years working with data from various uncompressed recording cameras to develop a 'Universal' de-Bayer program for Bayer sensor data that can work with almost any True RAW or DNG based Digital Cinema Camera (CinemaDNG) to be under full manual control to get the adjustments exact to avoid problems you can get with some other workflows such as AGC issues or 3D-LUT errors. I use full 16bit 1D-LUT for more accurate color correction transfer curves, no interpolation errors that 3D-LUT have in use.

The design of the production camera may he somewhat different from the prototype, I'm talking to them about some improvements. The goal is to keep the MSRP of the S8 (tm) as low as possible so that it can be a 'starter' camera for film students and micro-budget filmmakers, so there are some restrictions on its use but within those it is designed to record fully 100% uncompressed sensor data and full 12bit dynamic range of about 11 1/2 stops when the sensor analog gain is at minimum. Latitude for 1920x1080 use is about +1 stop and -2 stops, but it can go down maybe -5 stops with an increase in noise, and with Extended Dynamic Range processing you can get maybe +2 stops in the luma.

I have not seen the re-design outline drawing yet, but its planed to be smaller from what I understand.

If you have an interest I would suggest contacting them to let them know you are interested because there needs to be a volume order with the factory to get the price in range, making them one at a time makes the cost higher. Maybe someone can organize a one-time volume purchase so they can ship a container full, rather than air-mail them one at a time at the high cost of EMS.

Hi Ryan,

The KineRAW-S8p (tm) (portotype G4) camera has two slots in the back for 2.5" notebook drives, SSD or HDD. Normally it records to qualified SSD called KineMAG (tm), right now I'm testing a 60GB version. The camera can playback from the SSD for review and you can change the monitor LUT for the playback so you can in effect alter the K and ISO AFTER recording since its a True RAW recording camera, you can also select RED linear, Green Linear, or Blue linear as gray scale image to view just one color channel and to see the waveforms and histograms for just one color channel so you can be sure that you did not blow the highlights during a take. The replay works anytime and you can select any shot to replay. There is also a in camera copy feature to copy just one shot or all of them from the say left slot with the SSD in it to the right slot with a HDD in it, so you never NEED a laptop for anything while shooting, the camera has a Linux computer in it that does file management, loads monitor look tables, and updates the firmware etc., as well as runs the internal GUI interface, graphical menus, guide lines, waveforms, VU meters, and histograms etc. and the live SMPTE time code readout on the viewfinder screen, all with zoom being able to be used and moved around the frame while setting up, recording, and during playback to check focus. How they got all that to work at the same time is a mystery to me. In the S8 (tm) the viewfinder does drop frames but the recording seems solid.

Not sure what a 'usable clip' means? I was thinking of getting a HDMI to composite adapter and pluging that into a portable H.264 recorder to make a copy of what the camera is shooting for quick review. I guess you could do the same if your laptop has a video input.

My de-Bayer program has a quick 'workprint' mode that can make a half-size or smaller conversion with or without 'one light' color correction, you can mate those frames with the WAV audio from the camera in VirtualDub and make a 'proxy' AVI uncompressed or MPEGv2 to edit in FCP or some other program, and then later do a conform in my freeish or some other DI system.

You can also connect the HDMI output to a larger monitor and review the shots made, on set or later that evening, so you can see it 1280 wide (the S35 and S16 are to have 1920x1080 monitoring as I understand the plans). With zoom the 1280 monitoring of the KineRAW-S8p (tm) seems enough since it shoots 2.5K, using 1920 monitor would still be a reduction downsample, if you really want to see the detail then 1:1 on a 1280 monitor actually gives you bigger pixels to see the detail on.

There is no video feed over USB now, as that would need to be compressed in order to fit through as USB does not have enough bandwidth no, and the laptop could not keep up with the uncompressed data rate.

I think its better not to bother with the laptop, but as I said, you can use an HDMI to composite or HDSDI adapter and capture that if you need to for some reason. The in camera playback is better since it give zoom on the 2.5K data size (or what ever resolution you are shooting at).

The S35 and S16 are going to have HDSDI outputs as I understand it, but they cost about 4x, 2x as much maybe and have less oversample, are larger, but have Cineform (tm) option.

If you need 'instant' results, you might go for Cineform (tm) the compressed cameras S35 and S16 option.

I think you can trans-code the S8's DNG frames into Cineform (tm) with a converter program as well, you can ask Cineform (tm) how much that converter program costs (someone told me they used that workflow with an Acam (tm))

You cannot currently get realtime 2.5K out of the camera, it just goes to its internal SSD, you can take the SSD out after each shot and access the frames directly since its formatted HFS+ so any MAC can read it directly, or you can use Boot Camp on a PC, or you can use HFSExplorer (tm) (a free utility) to copy the DNG frames off to a PC's harddrive.

Another option is to dump the SSD to the HDD in the camera. The HDD can be formatted HFS+ or FAT32. If you use FAT32 on the HDD it can be directly read under WINDOWS (tm), MAC (tm), or LINUX (tm) for processing.

High end systems like IRIDAS SPEED GRADE can process CinemaDNG frames in real time as I understand it, google IRIDAS CinemaDNG to read about that as I have not used their system.

Getting good finish quality results takes post processing that can run 90 seconds per frame in software like mine depending on the computer speed and the number of filters active. If you want finish quality results you need to apply a good deal of processing, that is the idea behind shooting True RAW, you capture the data and then you can do anything you want to with it LATER. Its like shooting movie film, there are no movie film cameras that shoot out processed film ready to project. You take the film to the lab and wait several days for them to process it, print it, process the print, run everything though the ultrasonic cleaner, and such. But with a True RAW digital cinema camera you can do the processing at home yourself.

The S8p (tm) its not a broadcast camcorder, and the monitoring is mostly just for use as a viewfinder, not to use for finished results.

My comment above about the Nvidia Cuda board was to speed up the post production de-Bayer because the Cuda does parallel processing. My solution to that is to use 10 or more junk PCs at once to get the days frames done fast enough to keep up with what you are shooting on a feature, as you don't need to process all the shots at full finish quality, just workprint the ones that look like they are needed. The camera has real-time de-Bayer in it for shot review and you can plug it into a large HDMI monitor to watch what your shot before you decide what to 'print'.

The KineRAW-S8p (tm) not a camcorder, it is a full bandwidth True RAW recording Digital Cinema Camera recording full sensor bandwidth to DNG digital negative frames, those frames require some kind of processing if viewed outside the camera.

Did I answer your question?

The workflow for the KineRAW-S8p (tm) can be the same as the RED ONE (tm) had when Che was made by Steven Soderbergh, as I understood him they used REDCODE (tm) R3D by way of the RED (tm) de-Bayer program like REDCINE (tm) to TIF frames, and use the TIF frames in the DI to make the release prints in a Cinevator (tm).

You don't say what your workflow is? Or what program you are using as an NLE, but I am sure that through file conversion ANY NLE can be used with the cameras data since its downhill quality wise from uncompressed to data formats used by amateur editing programs.

My Program DANCINEC.EXE (tm) (my DANCINEx program names started before RED's I think maybe as DANCINEL.EXE (tm) was released before RED ONE (tm) came out) does a similar function to the REDCINE (tm) program, conversion of camera data into TIF/DPX/CIN/BMP frames.

For professional frame based post production tools, that is all you need, once the TIF/DPX/CIN/BMP frames are made they ingest into those tools just as 35mm film frame scans would.

For amateur NLE that use compressed streams, the high quality uncompressed frames can be converted into uncompressed AVI files by using the free program VirtualDub (tm). If you need MPEG4v2 or H.264 for the NLE you use, then VirtualDub (tm) can make those from the uncompressed frames as well, which is how I made the file to upload here since Vimeo is a compressed level presentation.

If you need other video formats, the uncompressed AVI can be converted into those by many free and otherwise video conversion utilities.

The goal is not so much to make a "finished clip" but to make a 35mm release print or DCP from the uncompressed frames for showing in a movie theater. Just as on would working with 35mm movie film scans such as CIN or DPX files.

There is no "lack of support for the NLE" you use as far as I can see. What NLE are you using?

The Cineform (tm) file format is very similar to REDCODE (tm) and has wide support in various NLE as that is being backed up by Go-PRO (tm) camera company.

The S16 and S35 models are to have onboard Cineform (tm) compression option recording to SSD, so are not different in that regard to Epic (tm) as Cineform (tm) has tools that should work on a laptop computer. Cineform (tm) has DNG to Cineform (tm) conversion. Cineform (tm) is wavelet compression just as REDCODE (tm) R3D (tm) files are. Cineform (tm) has a "RAW" version, just as R3D (tm) are.

But you need to understand that when you go from DNG to a compressed format, you are loosing something, with the KineRAW (tm) cameras you have the choice not to lose anything if you don't want to, otherwise you can lose as much as you want to squeeze the files down to a fraction of their original contents.

The post production workflow is established for CinemaDNG, DPX, and Cineform (tm), as well as H.264 and AVI, so I don't understand where you get the idea that there is no established workflow?

The question is not can the images be moved through an existing inferior workflow, but how can better results be obtained.

What most people seem to do with RED (tm) cameras and amateur NLE is to do a proxy edit off-line and then make a edit list file that is sent to a lab or post house to do the frame based DI from the original R3D files. The post house uses REDCINE-X (tm) and some glue programs to output DPX frames from the original R3D (tm) files, those are used to make the 35mm printing negatives in a film recorder or are used to make the DCP for projection in Digital Movie Theaters.

Such work may cost $250000 by the post house and lab to get prints in your hands for projection.

My freeish DI software can do the same sort of things things from the KineRAW-S8p (tm) camera's DNG frames, by way of your current NLE if the SMPTE time code is burned into the proxy frames you would edit with, then a manual conform can be done just by matching the time code for the head and tail edits of each shot. My de-Bayer program can window-dub brun-in the SMPTE and date+TOD on both sets of proxy frames, those converted for use in your current NLE, and the ones made for playback in my DI's NLE, then all you need to do is look at what is on the screen to see that you have the edit list in my NLE match the final edit in your NLE and then the DI can output the DPX frames for making the DCP or 35mm prints in that same edit order. The edit order DPX frames can carry the original matching time code as the DNG camera frames have SMPTE time code from the camera passed through tag 50740 meta-data and my de-Bayer program can pass that and date+TOD through to the right DPX header fields for use in standard workflows.

Using Epic (tm) and your laptop is not going to give you the quality of a lab's frame based DI, without the cost of a conform going back to the original R3D files, and the high cost of that service.

Just because you don't SEE what they are doing, does not make the workflow steps that different.

My freeish DI software can also be used to make a DI conform from Epic (tm) by way of using it with REDCINE-X (tm), just as it can be used with HDSLR cameras or any camcorder, its just a matter of converting the video to frames for frame based processing, such as by using the program 5DtoRGB (tm) to convert HDSLR files to DPX, or the Cineform (tm) to DPX utility etc.

What exactly is not "well established"?

I've been getting my info from;
lavender.fortunecity.com/lavender/569/anamorphic.html
Thanks Dan!

Hi Mark,

Since there is no date for the camera to go on sale, it may be a bit early to be shopping for accessories. As you probably know people were purchasing lenses for the C-mount Scarlet 2/3" camera that has not so far come to pass.

I've been told that Kinefinity (tm) plans on coming out with the S35 first, so you need to talk to them about if or when you can get a S8. They have the design for the G4 prototype I'm testing, but they want to make some changes to the design, if that comes to pass the production camera may be better yet, but it probably means some delays. I would bet that it probably will not be done until summer or ?.

I'm not in charge of those details of the development, its a cost issue with how many orders they can get at one time to cover the cost of having the factory make the cameras. So if you think you would like one, talk to them, I can't get the cameras into production as I don't have the plans, they do.

On the subject of anamorphic lenses I'm using an Elmo-Scope-II. It seems to work with the Angenieux 26mm f/0.95 and the Kern Switar 50mm f/1.4. The 8mm Schneider f/1.4 seemed to pickup a bit of cut-in on the corners but maybe I can move the adapter closer, I have not checked that yet. So lenses from maybe 12mm 150mm might work, but the front element of the prime lens (backup lens) needs to be smaller than the rear element of the anamorphic adapter.

I'm not promoting the sales of the camera here, just showing some tests since people have not seen what my de-Bayer software can do. My software works with various DNG cameras, like Acam dII (tm), SI-2K (tm), Kinor-2K (tm), and can be used with HDSLR if you use something like 5DtoRGB (tm) to make DPX frames from the compressed data.

Shooting the 2592x1104 mode and squeezing it digitally may yield sharper images on the movie screen than shooting the 1828x1556 mode because anamorphic lenses in general reduce resolution and are hard to get both the adapter and back-up lens in the same exact focus.

I've been thinking of making a relay optic to use some Lomo 2x anamorphic 35mm OCT-19 mount lenses on the KineRAW-S8p (tm), that way there is a single focus control on the lens for pull focus shots.

Anamorphic lenses are mostly about the flares and aberrations and distortion breathing that give the movie that "Panavision (tm) look" that shooting with flat lenses just does not obtain.

I've got some other things in the works, bit if you check back in about 4 to 8 weeks I may have the anamorphic reel edited down and you can see what it looks like at 1920x1080.

I have not gotten a clear answer from Kinefinity (tm) about if or when the production s8 will be shipping to filmmakers, so you need to talk to them about that. I hope this does not end up like maybe Kinetta (tm) (?) or Nox-2K (tm) (?), so they need to understand there is some interest by having you let them know yourself.

On the subject of S8 vs. Regular8 lenses, the Regular 8 lenses cover a smaller area. They may be useful for some of the sensor resolutions like 1280x720@60p or the high speed modes up to 220fps, but will not cover the larger resolutions and be sharp in the corners, probably. I have a D-mount ring I can screw into the camera to use D-mount lenses, I will maybe have some videos of that later.

The CS-mount ring can use CS lenses made for 1/3" format cameras, that covers a larger circle so can be used on the 2592x1104 mode and some of the other modes, perhaps it depends on how well the lens is corrected. I have a 2.6mm CS lens that seems not to bad I'm going to try on the 48fps mode for hand held shooting (it gets skip printed to 24 to reduce rolling shutter).

For Super8 lenses, they were all C-mount as far as I know, and good 16mm C-mount lenses can also work, as you see.

This video was shot with a Schneider 10mm f/1.8 16mm movie camera lens, and a 5mm f/1.4 1/2" format video 3MP megapixel lens made for machine vision.

Lenses made for 1/2" sensors cover a bit more than the 2592x1104 image area, so should be usable if they are of high quality. I have a f/1.0 8-48 zoom that looks OK on the viewfinder, but I need to shoot some more tests to tell better, its a 1/2" sensor format C-mount lens.

Most of the lenses I have looked at might be usable at f/8 or f/5.6, its wide open that you see the most difference in quality.

Hi Mark,

You got the wrong ZIP file, the one you are looking for is called DANCINEC.ZIP (tm) and is in the utilities download section, SECTION: 9.75.81.0. The best way to find things on my web site is to just use google with the key word you seek and DANCAD3D in the list without quotes.

DANCINEC.EXE (tm) has three copies of the same de-Bayer program in it, DANCINED.EXE (tm) 32bit-DOS for use under Windows ME (tm), DANCINEC.EXE (tm) for use under Windows ME (tm) through Windows 7 (tm) as far as I know, and DANCINEW.EXE (tm) for use under Windows XP Home (tm) through Windows 7 (tm) as far as I know. DO not use DANCINEW.EXE (tm) if you can get DANCINEC.EXE (tm) to work, the GUI version seems to have more issues even though its the same code for the most part. The DOS version will not work under Windows 7 64bit, so you need to use the Windows Console version. All three versions can call my GUI frame viewer that is included in DANCINEC.EXE (tm) called DANGUIVU.EXE (tm). If you try to run DANGUIVU.EXE (tm) by itself it will not do anything, it is only called by my other programs. My viewer has a probe in it as the file DANCINEC.TXT talks about, it can measure tonal values and is very useful for calibrating the read and write LUT needed for working with DPX and CIN files like Cineon (tm) Log-C etc. If you don't like my viewer you can have the de-Bayer program call MSPAINT (tm) or XNVIEW (tm) etc. bu changing the external viewer in the setup option #4 from the DANCINEC.EXE (tm) main menu. The graphics window defaults to 640 wide because you need to adjust the viewer config to your desktop aspect ratio, the full screen graphics only works on 4:3 monitors, but the external viewer can be setup for any Windows (tm) desktop resolution such as 2048 wide. The height of the viewer needs to be set a bit less than the desktop height because of windows issues with the blue bar at the top of the screen not being able to be pushed all the way off the screen, and the task bar making the program redraw twice if it overlaps, so if you have a 1920x1200 monitor (or bigger) you should be ok for setting the window area to 1920x1080 etc.

There are presets for the Acam (tm) footage, Igive the original filenames I think, you need to rename the DNG frames as the menu prompt tells you for my program to find the example frames. After you select the preset for the particular DNG frame (which goes in the program folder for the sample tests) you need to go to the execute menu and press T for (test) after maybe 90 seconds you should see the pop-up viewer appear and the sample image show, you can then click the left mouse button to move the probe around and use the right mouse button to adjust the size of the probe area etc.

The programs in DANCAD16.ZIP (tm) will not run under Windows 7 64bit as far as I know. I think there is some kind of download on Microsoft's (tm) web site for Windows XP (tm) compatibility add on, but I don't know if that will help.

As far as I know, support for 16bit DOS programs only goes up to Windows XP Home (tm). DANCAD87.EXE (tm) can run under FreeDOS (tm) Boot CD with large disk support, but the harddrive in your computer needs to have been formatted FAT32 in order to dual-boot your computer under FreeDOS (tm). I've done that to color correct using the CAD program, and then reboot to process with the de-Bayer program. Under FreeDOS (tm) with a video board that supports VESA graphics, the graphics should work up to 1920x1440, the program should support 2048x1536 but the only graphics cards I know of have bugs in their bios at that resolution under banked mode. The de-Bayer program is 32bit so it can use linear mode, as does my film recorder program, so they can work up to 2048x1536 in full screen display. And as mentioned the DANGUIVU.EXE (tm) should work up to the full desktop size less a bit on the height with its pop-up graphics window.

Sorry about all the odd nonsense, but that is what Microsoft (tm) came up with with regard to their planed obsolesce of existing software.

As for the release dates of the cameras, I hope its sooner than later, but its not something I can do much about. I'm just trying to get the issues worked out with my workflow by pushing TB of footage through and seeing where the spots are that need a bit of polish.

As I've noted, the quality of de-Bayer will vary with the use of various programs, one can compare my programs results with any other program, if you get something better I would enjoy seeing what that looks like and how it was obtained.

It was thinking of making a video showing some of the steps of using my programs for doing the DI thing, but I needed some footage to use for that. I have some footage now, so when I get some time that may be something to do. I don't think I can host it here though, so it may need to be on my web site.

As for the relay optic to use OCT-19 lenses on the S8, it should not be hard, you leave the iris in the OCT-19 lens wide open, and use like a 25mm f/0.95 Schneider on the camera, and put a field lens in the focal plane, then the OCT-19 lens forms an image on the filed lens and that is focused by the 25mm lens working at maybe 10 inches distance. The angle of view is small because of the small sensor area. If the 25mm cannot focus close enough you can use maybe a 50mm Switar, or put a view camera lens in front of the 25mm to act as a diopter. Its not a DOF adapter that way but the T/ stop would be faster than the Lomo lens, because the rays are focused by the f/0.95 lens on the camera so you might get T/1.3 or something with everything wide open, rather than the T/2.3 of the Lomos when used on film. Its better that way because you can use a follow focus on the Lomos because they have one focus adjustment and internal cams to sync the anamorphic part and the rear image forming group. And the S8 shoots 1828x1556 true "Panivision (tm)" pixel format so you get an exact fit to the Celco (tm) film recorder for making a release print (assuming color print stock will be available in a few years when you get your film finished...)

Its a bit of a crush doing this sort of thing, people want low MSRP but they want quick results, and as you can guess that's not easy to reconcile. So far they have done a great job getting the camera to work. They just updated the firmware with some great new functions, so I'll be busy testing things for some time I guess.

The steps are like:


1) Run DANCINEC.EXE (tm)


2) Select #1 from the main menu (global setup)


3) Select #3 form #1 menu, (Camera Type)


4) Select Acam dII (tm)


5) Answer the prompts until you get back to the menu.


6) Press [Esc] to get back to the main menu.


7) Select #2 from the main menu (Process Method menu)


8) Select #6 (process methods presets, its under finish mode menu #5)


9) Select the Acam dII (tm) process methods.


10) Select one of the presets for the Acam dII (tm) DNG frames.


You need to do some things here, you can use the windows button to pop-out and copy one frame of the sample DNG to the program directory and then rename that copy to the same name the preset tells you to. Later you can change the source and result filenames with #3 in the execute menu, but to keep things simple you are just processing one frame. The reason you need to re-name it is so that it has a known 8 letter filename. I was going to include those samples but did not get a positve reply from Acam dII (tm) about doing that, so you need to. If they give me permission I would be able to make a ZIP that has those for people to make things much simpler.


Once you get the DNG renamed right, proceed by clicking on the program bar on the task bar or clicking on the top of the program window depending on if you are using the DOS full screen, or one of the windowed versions.


11) Press [Esc] back to the main menu after answering yes to the prompts for the Acam dII (tm) setup, those prompts override any settings in the program. Later you will learn that you can set-up a *.GVN file with the prompts #1 then #1 from the main menu so that you can keep all the needed settings for fast switching between processing methods and camera types, and then you can clone the GVN to make new ones to edit just some fields like the shot range or de-Bayer sharpen etc. You don't need to do anything to the GVN name now, as the program defaults to one with the same name as the program. To clone the current settings you enter a new name and then the program will ask you, use current settings or use default settings, if you keep the current settings you have cloned the GVN with a new name and you can then make changes. Do not change the GVN now as you have just set it up for one color balance of the Acam dII (tm) samples.


12) Select #3 from the main menu (execute menu). Before you do that look at the main menu and see if you see the source and result filenames pointing to the program folder, and showing the 8+3 name xxxxxxxx.DNG for the source and xxxxxxxx.BMP for the result, also you should see process method 40001 showing and the resize code should not be zero, but the one for Acam dII (tm) that crops their 2048x1092 data down to 1920x1080 size (the resize codes are in the resize menu, R inside the finish method setup and R in the execute menu).


13) Select [T] for Test in the execute menu, after a bunch of little messages show during processing the graphics viewer should come up and you should see the processed result. If there is a graphics problem use option [8] which is process without preview, you can then open the BMP made with the windows preview command to see the result. Press [Return] to exit the graphics preview. You can also use the digital density probe in the graphics viewer if you click the left mouse button and adjust the size of the probe with the right mouse button putting the cursor on the corner of the yellow rectangle for the probe area.


14) Since the graphics viewer is set to 640 wide, select option #4 from the main menu (you press Escape to get back from the execute menu). Select option #2, graphics configuration, and then you can adjust the graphics viewer window size for the pop-up viewer, or on some computers with 4:3 monitor you can select full screen graphics. When done, press [Esc] to get back to the main menu. In the config it lets you exit before going into all the other prompts, but if you are making DPX files, you would need to setup the DPX monitoring LUT setup in order to have the preview look right, there is a special marking RGB to RGB process method for marking the Kodak DLAD image *.CIN file, that can be a big help in adjusting the monitoring LUT, see the *.TXT fie in the DANCINEC.ZIP (tm)file for information about the code values for the gray steps that are superimposed. You can also mark any of you own CIN or DPX files (10 or 16bpc un-packed uncompressed) so you can see how the load and save or monitoring LUT adjust the tonal curves. Likewise with the ITU limits on the BMP frames, if you use that the monitoring needs to be adjusted to compensate.


15) Once you get all that working, you can make a edit list structure to batch process footage, that is in option #5 then #1 from the main menu, the prompts should be clear, you don't need to make all 10000 shots to start with, you can make one with a range of maybe 0 to 100 shots and add more later with the range prompt.


16) In order to move your work disks from your grading computer to the render computers, you can use the filename string replacement option #5 then #2 from the main menu. Say your grading computer calls the disk L:\ but your render computer calls it D:\, you enter L:\ as the string to replace and D:\ as the string to replace it with. Several replacements can be made, enter a blank source string to end the replacement prompts. That will enable the automatic string replacements, when you return the disk back to the grading computer remember to disable that at the same prompts otherwise the grading computer will be looking for files in a edit structure on the wrong disk maybe.


Anyway way, that is the general idea. If you want to process Acam dII (tm) whole shots, you need to rename the frames so they are numbered like 00000000.DNG, 00000001.DNG, 00000002.DNG, that is called #3=Padded numbered filenames in my programs, normally my programs use option #4=Divided filenames that only save 500 frames per sub-folder and make more sub-folders as needed that overcomes a realtime speed and about 65535 framelimit per folder so the program can work with feature length frame sets for continuous playback while editing.


When you output frames to programs like VirtualDub (tm) that don't support my divided filename format, you need to use the padded or long formats, so you will be limited to frame sets of 65535 or less on some OS versions as that is all that can fit in a folder at once, that is enough though to do a 22 minute reel (24*60*22 = 31680 frames) so you should be OK for most projects that way.


There is a command in the DANCAD87.EXE (tm) Files Utilities menu that can rename numbered filenames, and maybe you can do it just with the DOS command prompt in Windows (tm). To get a DOS prompt you enter COMMAND in the RUN window that you can see when you click on the START button in the lower left of the bar at the bottom of the desktop.


If you get stuck, you can email, maybe with a photo of the screen you are stuck in.

If you need DPX result frames, the setup for that is in the #1 option under the option for DPX setup, you can see prompts for input and output LUT setup there, you can read those menus and the TXT files in the ZIP.

Using the 95-685 Cineon (tm) LOG-C is normal for most programs. Set softclip to 215 on output if the source is DNG, or on input if the source was not soft clipped yet, you can use values from 0 to 215 (685-215=470) if you like some of the highlights clipped.

To get the IUT limits for 10bit data the clip points are 16x4=64 and 235x4=940.

18% Mid tone for Log-C should be code 470 and for Rec.709 104x4=416. For full range use on computer monitors the clip points would be 0 and 1023 and mid tone at 118x4=472 (that is rounded and probably where Kodak got 470 from).

Best wishes for success in your projects.

I forgot to mention that its possible to run more than one copy (like 4x) of DANCINEC.EXE (tm) on the same computer at the same time working on processing different shots frames if you have the program copies each in their own separate folder. If you have a quad-core computer you might get some advantage that way, but I have not tested that yet for total throughput. Also you can press [Ctrl]+[Alt]+[Del] on Windows XP to 7 (tm) computers to get a menu that lets you set the program priority, but do not select maximum as that will probably lock up or crash your computer.

The firmware for the KineRAW-S8p (tm) is not final yet and the OLPF may change in the production cameras so I don't have valid presets for the color matching in the version of DANCINEC.EXE (tm) on my web site now so you would be unable to get usable results for the most part at this time, I'm manually grading each shot.

At some point when the camera's firmware and optical design are stable I plan to calibrate presets for standard EI/ISO and K values. The camera's are not on sale yet, unlike Acam dII (tm) and the other cameras I have calibrated presets for in my current release. The presets for OptimaCine (tm) and Kinefinity (tm) are for their internal testing only.

The shot from Acam dII (tm) you mention was shot with mixed illumination and it was not possible to get good color balance on both sides of his face. It would have been better if they shot that using just quartz 3200K bulbs and turned off all other light types. If you have florescent lights on in a room you get green shadows under peoples chins and such from the fill light being a different spectrum, that's basic filmmaking knowledge I would think, avoid mixed illumination for good results.

Since the KineRAW (tm) cameras may not be available outside China for some months, I would hope that you can be make due with other sources of source frames to test your workflow options with.

For academy result, or at least 4:3, there is 1920x1440x12bit@24fps.

Used lenses of good quality can be found on ebay sometimes, you need to search. Its a bit harder now that various C mount lenses are being picked up for use on 4/3" cameras. Super8 Zoom lenses may be useful for the 1920x1440 mode, such as the Angenieux 6-80mm f/1.2, the lens mount on the KineRAW-S8p (tm) is adjustable for getting the flange-to-focal distances set without the need to adjust the lens itself, rather you loosen a locking ring and screw the lens mount in and out a few microns. The camera has 200% zoom on the viewfinder so that makes it easier to get the adjustment set right, you use the wide angle zoom end and focus on the craters of the moon or a bright star like Venus, maybe.

You can email Kinefinity (tm) directly and tell them you are interested in purchasing the KineRAW-S8 (tm) to find out more about their marketing plans. Tell them what country you are going to have the camera shipped to from China.

You can also follow the discussion about the KineRAW (tm) cameras on DVXuser, google keywords KineRAW, Vimeo, DVXuser.

People on DVXuser say they get through to Kinefinity (tm) by way of their contact email address, try KineRAW.com (tm) and see if the email contact there works, you may need to copy and paste the email address into your email program manually.

If you want to pass on a message I can email it to them I have their personal contact info since I am talking to them about interoperability issues with my software most days. There are many issues to go over to get the color matching on the camera's viewfinder working well.

There is a program called 5DtoRGB (tm) you can google that, it may work with H.264 to DPX conversion, that way you don't need to reverse de-Bayer the images that can introduce some losses.

The program of mine that is the de-Bayer program is called DANCINEC.EXE (tm) and it is in DANCINEC.ZIP (tm) in the utilities download section. It is the new image processing program. The DI/NLE/MIX part is still in the Files Utilities Kinema Edit command in DANCAD87.EXE (tm), other parts of the CAD program can be ignored if you don't need them.

DCRAW (tm) may auto-adjust for each frame, which can be bad since it acts like AGC. My DANCINEC.EXE (tm) can hold the color adjustments for the length of the shot so you don't get any AGC effect and its like a motion picture film printer with one light change per cut.

You can talk to Kinefinity (tm) about being a dealer, but because the margin on the S8 may be small, a large order by sea in a cargo container might make more sense than ordering then one at a time by air mail. If you cannot get through email me and I will try to copy and paste your message to an email to them for you, but you need to give me permission to pass your email address on to them explicitly.

You can email me directly with questions about my programs my email is at the top of each page at my web site, google DANCAD3D (tm) for that link.

BTW, I'm not the guy with the glasses, that is my Brother, but you can see me if you turn up the brightness on your monitor and look at the last shot in #B1 reel, I'm looking up at the monitor while doing the 'pull back' shot of the Schneider 4.8mm lens...