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Blake Whitman locked this topic on Jun 1, 2008 because everyone has made their point.
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The thing is that the vimeo guys will blame it on my computer, but I have a pretty strong feeling they aren't telling the whole story. Why is it that it used to be OK, but not anymore? They are deleting threads dealing with this problem, and refuse to bring the truth into the open. Why don't they communicate changes they implement? Also, they seem to favorise some users, esp those who upload frequently, while leaving others out in the cold: their help section focuses on uploading, not on playback, which is a clear sign.
Seems to me Vimeo has grown to quickly. They aren't up to the task.
I think you will find that we are VERY transparent with our users, especially if you just look around these forums.
I'm sorry you are having trouble watching videos these days, but I can honestly tell you that we have not changed anything on the site that should affect your ability to watch videos.
And since I am the moderator of these forums, I can assure you that we do not delete forum posts to cover up anything secret or anything like that. If you have questions, please just ask them, and we'll try to answer them the best we can.
I couldn't have dreamed it would be that simple. Just turn off the external storage - only a button away - and Vimeo is just amazing!
1) Eugenia Lolli mentioned that a thread about low fps and changes from 25 to 30fps was deleted by vimeo. Can you confirm that?
2) I quote from the vimeo help section: "Do I need a fast computer? We’ve found that most computers made in the last two or three years (running either Mac OS X or Windows) are fast enough to play butter-smooth HD. In some cases, you may realize a major performance gain by quitting unused programs and closing extra browser windows. Our player is designed to degrade the video quality gracefully if it detects that it’s dropping frames."
Especially the last sentence is very interesting to me. Is it marketing talk, or hard fact?
1) We recently switched back to 25fps for HD because many people complained they were unable to watch HD smoothly.
2) Our flash player detects your settings and will degrade the quality if your computer cannot handle the load... that is not marketing talk.
I thought that perhaps vimeo's poor playback on my pc might be due to a recent flash upgrade.
>many people complained they were unable to watch HD
>smoothly.
>2) Our flash player detects your settings and will
>degrade the quality if your computer cannot handle the
>load... that is not marketing talk.
So #2 didn't happen enough for people who couldn't watch 30 fps in HD?
Eugenia Loli-Queru 6 days ago
Ivan, I could have directed you to the thread that explains the problem, but Vimeo deleted it (they shouldn't have, they should have just lock it). For a month, they re-encoded HD videos in 30fps instead of their usual maximum 24fps, and this puts extra strain on most PCs. Since 48 hours ago, they went back to 24fps.
So, if the NEW videos still stutter badly for you, only use the non-HD version to view videos here. Click the "HD is ON" button on the flash video, and this will turn off the HD version."
If that really doesn't help still, then you will have to upgrade your laptop or watch Vimeo in a non-HD mode. Truth is, my PC can barely deliver 24p 720p, and your laptop is quite slower than my PC, so your stutters are to be expected. Maybe in the past you were watching Vimeo in the non-HD mode and you don't remember?
I have always had problems playing smooth HD clips, but I know that it is neither Vimeos fault, or my PowerBooks fault.
Your internet connected varies day to day, and even minute to minute depending on how many people are using the internet in area, and just the overall 'splittage' of the line (if you have cable internet).
2) The problem isn't caused by internet connection, because it occurs even if I first allow the downloading to complete.
For example, I ripped a bunch of DVDs in high quality about a year ago. At the time, my version of Quicktime played them flawlessly on an old 12" PowerBook G4 I use as a media center. An update to Quicktime later, they stutter like crazy using ANY app. They arent even usable on that machine now.
How much memory is on your system, what cpu, OS. and video card?
How do you set up cash in Flash and Firefox?
Select SETTINGS
click on the FOLDER
"Local Storage.. How much information can bitcast.vimeo.com store on your computer?"
Mine is on 100 kb. Try increasing that.
vimeo.com/forums/topic:5445
does the video he complain about look good to you, and the video that he says is good look bad?
Well i better just shut up.... i really dont know much anyway... i really like vimeo so far thou !!!!!
Except for fast motion material there's really no advantage to 30fps, right? And even then if you use a fast enough shutter speed it's not really a matter of one being blurred and the other not being blurred, just how much of the action will be captured.
it looks like your HD train was encoded by vimeo at 30 fps.
Create a new upload for it, and watch it how 24 fps will butcher it.
But I don't think you being from Belgium has anything to do with your tone. Frankly I agree that your comments were accusatory and largely unfounded. If you have questions, you should ask. We are always here to help.
And so are most of the other users you will find on this site. We have a friendly community here that is supportive and appreciative, and they understand that as we work hard to improve the site, there may be hiccups along the road. That is why we are so transparent and open about the process.
Great way to start things off...
Like time, technology moves on, for a computer than slow i'd be surprised to see it run HD at all. Cant expect miricals from so little. Your best bet is to upgrade in general.
Your computer since its old, may also degrade. Thats along with so many other things on your end (computer) that change, updates, bla bla bla... Things that you dont know of.
Lots of pointing fingers and stuff vs what (imo) seems to me is little lacking with proper trouble shooting. Your not perfect so you could of did or missed something. Hell even codec packs and changes make a huge differance (along with their compatibility)
Yes, but it´s like a market dictatorship. This so called "evolution" or "progress" forces me to buy a new computer from time to time.
I wish I could keep my old, favorite computer and still access vimeo and other sites. Of course, this is impossible and it´s not vimeo´s fault.
This rant was stimulated by the new player, which runs slow on my system. :-(
Alot of people that know some things about computers would know that any number of things they have done or was done on the computers side (without their knowledge) that could easily of done something like this.
Some things have to be changed to some what keep with the times. Yes, it feels like we are forced to do this if we like to still see-do-hear whatever we are used to.
All this summed up is a bunch of accusations with little or no technical knowledge. Even if the new player is at fault (at vimeo). There isnt much one can do about it. Its hard to be fair to all the market even though their lucky to do that with such an old computer. There is always a safety range, and as long as technology and things move forward, that range will always stay the same, but move along with technologies progression. Everybody faces this, its just a matter if you rather be at the top of technology or in that range. If we all stayed in the same spot, the range would eventualy move past us, leaving us behind. Just like Ivan. Simple logic to be honest...
Slightly off topic....
I try to stay in the middle of the range. I beat the ridiculous prices, these items now have been on the market at least enough to have solid user/pro reviews (all qwerks would have been found). I allows me to make a better decision since its tried, tested & true... This also means i never seem to have the newest thing on the block, but then a again... Its worth it to me. I get better value and use for my hard earned cash. The cost i could get left behind quite fast too since its only a day on the market and its already out-of-date.
Somewhere else there is a statement that any recent computer, less than 3 years old, should be able to play video just fine. This, of course, is contrasting with Mark's opinion: "Like time, technology moves on, for a computer that slow i'd be surprised to see it run HD at all. Can't expect miricals from so little. Your best bet is to upgrade in general."
As far as your problem goes, it seems that it could be one of many reasons causing it. I have sporadic issues with HD too. Some weeks they glide along and other weeks they tend to stagger.
Im sure that Vimeo wants everyone to get top rate performance in playback and with uploads.
When video was 30p it wasn't smooth. Now that it's back to 24p it's not smooth. Frankly, it's never been smooth. And, with dropping every 6 frames -- it will never look smooth.
What I find amazing is the claim folks protested 30p. I can find NO posts that protested the use of 30p. It seems vimeo internally decided to promote 30p as a great new feature and then for some internal reason decided to terminate 30p and cover it all over by claiming it was just an experiment.
PS: wouldn't it make sense for vimeo to post that we should upgrade our flash players and provide links to it. Just like sites that use Acrobat?
And by the way, no one is forcing you to use our service.
That's because Vimeo DELETED the thread that had over 35 comments in it when they reverted back to 24p.
>And, with dropping every 6 frames -- it will never look smooth.
24p looks SMOOTHER than 30p on MOST people's machines. You don't live alone in the world, you know. Flash is simply not optimized for fast 720/30p playback, so drop it. If you have a problem with it, email Adobe to get their act together. Vimeo can't do anything about it.
If you don't like Vimeo, go to Blip.TV which also has HD. Let's see how you would like their 15fps policy there.
1) What I'm sensing is that there is a general feeling at vimeo that nothing can be done to get smooth motion with HD. But, Apple iTunes and Apple TV both show perfectly smooth HD. So, it's not impossible. But, Apple uses H.264, not Flash. (What's wrong with H.264? It's what we upload.)
2) My sense is there is a vimeo marketing concept of HD defined only by spatial resolution -- not by temporal resolution. Yet, 99.9% of people on a small screen will never see the difference between 960x540 and 1280x720. Yet, that non visible difference would allow vimeo to increase the frame-rate to 30fps. And, that improvement would be VERY visible to everyone.
3) Eugenia, of course IF people really posted 24fps video there's nothing wrong with 24fps. But, very very few people remove 3-2 pulldown before editing and so even when they shoot 24fps, what they upload is 30fps. That means 99% of the PAl and NTSC users have frames DROPPED. Dropped frame video looks very bad.
2. Yeah, but not many people would know about this trick. It's not something that you can market easily and people understand what the heck is about. The concept is simply not easy to follow for most people.
3. YES, DROPPED. Because, they can't render fast enough in Flash. It is BETTER to DROP frames and give people an 75% smooth result at 24p, that to re-encode 720p in 30p and give the average of people a 25% smooth result. I have to tell you again: you are not alone in this world. The average of the users is what matters, not you alone and your super-fast machine.
Stole several minutes of my time, just because you commented here.
PS. Linux is the BEST! (mybe this works too ;) )
Also, Vimeo is heavily sponsored by hardware manufacturers like Canon (and now toyota). Already, they are forcing us to upgrade computer hardware, camera's etc.
And last, but not least, Vimeo is based in New York City and is an operating business of IAC and Connected Ventures. So, basically, it's all about money, really. The real difference is the Vimeo community, and with that I mean YOU and ME. Compared to YouTube and the like, the vimeo community is kind and respectful. Second, the staff are approachable. I mean, have you ever gotten a reply from YouTube staff?
Despite me squirting vinegar here - my apologies, but this is a literal translation of a Dutch proverb - I love Vimeo, I love the Vimeo staff, and I love the vimeo community.
We (the staff) are just as much apart of this community as anyone else, please remember that.
Think before you type.
Geez, no one is forcing you to do anything. This is a cutting edge video sharing site. If your old hardware can't handle the HD, guess what? It may be time to upgrade if you wanna do all the latest & greatest stuff. And that goes for ANY kind of technology. Thats life in the fast lane, chief.
I can sit here and back vimeo even being a noob at least on the HD end of it. I do it due to what they offer. First thing i wrote in here i came in neutrally, but might of came off a lil wrong. Even though i didnt accuse anybody, i still got respectful responses. Its tact and respect imo. Its not that you were out of line, its how you brought yourself across and how you worded it. Seems like fingers were being pointed. I bet my new camcorder, that if you approached it Ivan, in a better manner then your "blunt tell it how it is"... I'm sure you would of got more of what you wanted instead of people feeling they have to defend themselves and Vimeo. Your lucky this wasn't youtube. You would of been trash talked like no other. I am sure you know this. But also you have to understand this isnt youtube and i guess your approach didn't fly here.
Its also ALWAYS going to be that some people aren't able to play things right, some will have it perfect, and everything else in the middle. I mean as time progresses things have to move forward. I wasnt around for this 24fps change. Dont know much about it. So i cant even comment there. I just got the new Panasonic SD9, hell i dont even know how big (or little) my issues are going to be just with that alone.
No worries Ivan apology accepted. Just go about things differently if you can, it just may be that much more beneficial for you and everybody...
In short, you're seeing an Adobe Flash Player decode issue (On2VP6 is developed by On2 not Adobe though).
The professional compressionists I work with and around generally feel dropped frames of any kind should be avoided completely. It's one "artifact" everyone notices. The solution is to drop the data rate and frame size. Of course at that point it may not be "HD."
For people uploading at 30fps and maybe even 25fps, the results is that ALL USERS will see dropped frames given the resultant frame rate conversion issue on the Vimeo encode.
ONLY those shooting and uploading at 24fps will have their material shown without dropped frames.
IMHO I'd rather have 25% of the viewers see 30fps proper than 100% see dropped frames because of the frame rate conversion issue.
For those who can't view 720p30 they can view the Standard Def version Vimeo provides.
720p30 source (or 25fps) not properly encoded to 720p24 won't look good to anyone.
As I said above, if you go to the next biggest HD video site, Blip.TV, they re-encode at 15fps. So trust me, Vimeo is where it's at. You just have to wait a bit of time for the Flash 10 to come out and more people upgrade their PCs to see 30p again. It's just ain't its time yet when it comes to Flash.
2) Is there no one at Vimeo who can understand that ALL they need to do is ALLOW 960x540p25 or 960x540p30 video to pass through with only a change in codec. This video uses much less bandwidth than 720p24. Who would this option hurt?
3) Now they blame Flash. Yes -- Flash is terrible. The whole industry knows this. But why use Flash at all? Use QT! Everyone has QT. QT supports H.264 which is the optimal upload codec. There's no need to recode at all. Just allow us to upload H.264, store the file, and download the file as H.264.
4) Why the concern about SLOW PCs. As Craig points out -- if someone owns a slow computer -- the SD version is always available. If you don't own and HDTV you don't get to watch HDTV. Likewise, if you don't own a current PC -- you don't get HD.
5) Frankly, I would prefer the option to make the SD version not be available. If someone can't see it as I created it -- I don't want them to see it.