Canon EOS 7D

ProRes 422 (LT)

Ryan Hargrave

Ryan Hargrave

What are you FCP editors using for your codecs for footage from the 7D. I've traditionally used ProRes 422 or ProRess 422 (HQ).

But as I'm looking through the spec a thought occured. If the 7D shoots roughly 48 mb/sec and ProRes 422 (LT) is for datastreams below 100 mb/sec why am I not using that?

Or maybe it doesn't matter since the datastream of the clips will stay the same. Is there any benefit?

Josh Ratliff

Josh Ratliff Plus

422 (LT) is what I use. I do this because when I first got the camera, I watched a tutorial by B&H Photo on the work flow for FCPand the 7D. 422 LT is what they suggest. You can see the video on their site.

Leo Telles

Leo Telles

Hi, i don't use FCP yet, but i read some things the past couple days.
Apple info:
422 - 145mbit format for uncompressed HD workflows
422 LT - 100mbit fomat for compressed HD workflows

So if the 7d files are compressed (h264) and 48 mb/sec the perfect format would be 4222 LT, isn't it?

Russ Pond

Russ Pond PRO

I've now finished 3 corporate videos on the Canon 7D, and I used ProRes 422 LT, and it looks beautiful. I couldn't see any degradation in quality.

Ron Elliot

Ron Elliot

It really depends on your finaly out put web, dvd, theater etc and if your going to do any color correction. I sugesst 422 HQ however I want to test it uncompress 10 bit and then do a color correction to that file and see it will hold up, has anyone tried it?

Ryan Hargrave

Ryan Hargrave

Ron,

i've done test of 422, 422 LT and 422 HQ from the native h.264 files off of the 7d and have seen no difference other than file size. I pulled each into Color and there was no more data in the HQ than the LT.

granted.. my knowledge is limited in color correction. But if the 7d isn't putting out a bit rate higher than 422 LT then up-converting it to 422 HQ isn't going to add data that wasn't there. Much the same as recording an mp3 at 64kbps and then transcoding it to 320kbps is still going to be the same recording. but again.. i don;t know if Color would add data that would push it to a higher bitrate... I wouldn't think so though.

Ron Elliot

Ron Elliot

hey Ryan,
Well the way for color correction is you want to uncompressed to a 444 color space the minus is because it so compress you do as you say intro artifacts and then more when you re compress the image I'm no colorist but I work on features and etc. to say the way it is done pre DSLR is to uncompressed the image and then color correct however that's using a davinci not using FCP color so it really depends on your end output for the web you wouldn't have to but if your going to film you will. anyone can drop they re input I d like to hear.

ghostcar

ghostcar

422 LT is a great codec for the 7D - I've been testing Apple's color with it - using lots of effects in the timeline in FCP and it just keeps playing smooth. I'm sold on it. I did start out in HQ then realized the file sizes were enormous plus your NLE has to push all that data around.

Visually I do not see any difference. 7D footage has been shown on the big screen cut in with Red one footage and the audience did not notice it. I am gearing up to shoot a 30 min. short with the 7D. I'm excited to work with my Nikon primes. This camera is really something.

joseph park

joseph park

ive been using prores 422 lt with good results as well. the h.264 files actually studder to a point where it is very unprofessional on my macbook pro. when transcoding to 422 hq, it takes away some of the studdering but not all. same thing with regular 422, it takes some of the glitchyness away but not all. so far with 422 LT it seems to take away most about 90% of the original studdering or glitchyness. Does anyone have this problem with the macbook pro? i have the 15.4" 2.4ghz, with 4gb of ram, and 5400 rpm hdd.

James - The Motion Artist

James - The Motion Artist Plus

The problem will be with the speed of the HD in your laptop.

I recommend getting a 7200 rpm Raid 0 drive then you shouldn't see any problems.

Limelight Studios

Limelight Studios Plus

I'm using Apple ProRes 422 (LT) and it edits wicked. As long as you have a fast computer it goes off without a hitch.

Jerry Verdin

Jerry Verdin

This is great to read! I've been using 422, but hearing that LT's quaility looks the same, I'm going to start using that. It would save me space on my harddrive, and probably time rendering.

CLANDESTINE LAB

CLANDESTINE LAB

The correct worckflow is:

1º compress the media to "proress422 proxy" and "prores4444" or "uncompresed 444 12bits" (if we have a big machine, if not, prores 444 is ok)

2º edit in final cut with the prores422 proxy media.

3º when we have finish editing, we have that reconect the media, and replace the files proxys for the files 4444. When we are done, we have to send the sequence to color.

4º In color, when we are finishig, we have to send the media in proress444 to final cut.

5º If we are not going to use color, all that does not need

VIDEOHOOD

VIDEOHOOD Plus

awesome, that's what I figured.
How do you replace the footage in the timeline when shifting to prores422? just by reconnecting to new 444 files or is there a "proxy" function I'm not aware about?

Katy Skjerping

Katy Skjerping

drb! I've been looking for you! How did you specifically do steps 2 & 3? I can't find a way to do an "offline/online" workflow in fcp where I can transcode to proxy...then upon picture lock re-transcode to prores 444. Did you have to do both?

I have a feature coming up and they all want to work in pro res 422, but they dont have to do the edit, I do. the 422 will bog my system (mac pro quad core2.93 Ghz Intel)

but i don't want to have to transcode to pro res, then down to proxy...if I don't have to.

Please expand on this workflow!

Ryan Hargrave

Ryan Hargrave

Katy, if you do that way you have to transcode both. the proxy is just a low-res version used to make all your cuts, etc.. then the 444 replace the proxy files and everything is rendered out.

But again... if we are talking about footage out of the 7D I've yet to find solid proof that anything higher than 422LT is actually doing something beneficial. The only thing that I haven't tested (don't have the knowledge) is if the 422LT files are sent to Color, will it add enough data to the video to require a higher bit-rate. But I just can't imagine that it would. And if so, would it really be seen or be noticeable?

Katy, I use 422LT on my core duo macbook pro and it works just fine.

bradbell.tv

bradbell.tv Plus

I was under the impression it didn't matter what you sent Color (as long as it's one of Color's native input formats).

For example, if you shot on HDV, you would edit HDV and send HDV to Color.
Color would then RENDER out to whatever ProRes flavour you want to use to preserve the good work Color did.

By this logic, it makes sense to convert 7D video (45Mbps) to the relatively higher resolution ProRes LT (100Mbps), edit and send to Color. Then ask whether ProRes LT is good enough to preserve the good work Color did. In the manual, Apple suggests it's not: they suggest ProRes HQ or higher. It's your picture master.

VIDEOHOOD

VIDEOHOOD Plus

Brad, it's not only the bitrate...when it comes to editing you never should use any codec that is intraframe, GOP style.(HDV, AVCHD, H.264) They are good for storing, playing and recording because they are highly compressed but to edit you should really use an inter frame based codec as it is easier on your processors despite the bigger file sizes (like ProRes, or before it was AIC for HD and in the SD world DV was awesome because it was interframe, meaning there is a real individual frame compressed in it as for GOPs you have one whole frame and 12-15 frames that doesn't really exist, they just record extra info that changed from the first frame)

Garnet Campbell

Garnet Campbell

I'm editing a doc and have about 20 hours of footage shot on 7D. I was thinking of editing in prores proxy. The EOS Canon A-1 plug in breaks down like this: Final Cut Pro 7:

* ProRes 4444

* ProRes 422 (HQ)

* ProRes 422

* ProRes 422 (LT)

* ProRes 422 (Proxy)

* Apple Intermediate Codec

Final Cut Pro 6:

* ProRes 422 (HQ)

* ProRes 422

Does anyone know how to get Prores ( proxy ) to work with FCP 6?

Patrik Nordlund

Patrik Nordlund

Canon doesn't seem to supply a corresponding plug-in for Premiere (Windows). I tried Streamclip but as someone mentioned, even if you have QT Pro installed under Windows, then prores is readonly and I can therefore not export anyway.

Does anybody know of an (preferably free) alternative for us Windows 7 / Adobe Premiere users?

VIDEOHOOD

VIDEOHOOD Plus

there's no prores for windows, it's a codec that was develop for and comes bundled only with FCP. It's so good that this alone is worth the shift from Premiere/windows to Final Cut/Mac.
They say that the Mercury engine is pretty good since CS5 but I haven't tried that.

Mike W

Mike W Plus

I am using the ProRes 422 (LT), and it's looking fine.

One question though: What is the best setting to set in Compressor for Vimeo? I usually use the preset for YouTube, but don't know if that's the best for Vimeo.

Boston McConnaughey

Boston McConnaughey

If your final product is intended to be in H.264 for internet does this which workflow is better?

1) Create a Prores (Proxy) for editing
2) Replace the Proxy with Original H.264 for color correction
3) Export to H.264

or

1) Create a Prores (LT)
2) Color Correct LT
3) Export from LT to H.264

Josh Ratliff

Josh Ratliff Plus

I like option two. I export the 422 (LT), then use Compressor to take it back to H.264. See the video I posted above for the Compressor settings.

VIDEOHOOD

VIDEOHOOD Plus

really, the H.264 doesn't hold up for editing not to mention color correction. You should really do these things with an interframe codec (as ProRes or AIC if you don't have FC 6 or 7)

Benjamin Dowie

Benjamin Dowie Plus

Very interesting discussion. I too use ProRes (LT) for my 7D projects and am getting great results but was wondering wether using ProRes or ProRes (HQ) is actually better. Sounds like the answer is leaning towards no.

Aaron Vogel

Aaron Vogel

Gernet Cambell - This is obviously late, but I thought I'd through this answer out there in case anyone else has the same question:

ProRes Proxy, LT and 4444 were introduced in Final Cut 7. In short, FCP 6 doesn't support them, thus there's no way to use the Canon Plug-in to encode to them.

The Loft Presents

The Loft Presents Plus

Hi all! Great topic. I come from an Adobe background, currently using CS5... would it be a good workflow to render out ProRes with Final Cut Pro and take the rendered files into Premiere and After Effects and such?

Ryan Hargrave

Ryan Hargrave

If you are using CS5 it supports native editing of the H.264 and everything I've read about that says it's good.

Mat Guzzo

Mat Guzzo

guys, this topic really helped me out. 442 LT seems the option. But as I converted with compressor, the file was larger than my canon550d footage. I tried it in final cut and it is awesome. Still, I tried 442proxy and it's still better. If I choose to edit my footage in 422proxy, and then export it with the perfect quality, how can I do it?

Ryan Hargrave

Ryan Hargrave

when you edit with proxy, you will still have to create the high-quality versions before exporting the whole thing.

Arseny Preobrazhenskiy

Arseny Preobrazhenskiy

I recently shot a film with a 5d mark II. I tried the using both the compressor and the Mpeg Streamclip (Apple ProRes 422 HQ). In the result I get the darker and colder color of my footage. Is this a bug? do you know how to fix it? Maybe I chose the wrong preferences.
Thanks

Dave Green

Dave Green

What is the difference between 422 LT and HQ?

Helkin Rene Diaz

Helkin Rene Diaz

Hi, I've use compressor. There you have 4 options for the Apple ProRes.
-Apple ProRes 422 for interlaced material, and the option in (HQ)
-Apple ProRes 422 for progressive material, and the option in (HQ)

Which one is the best for 7D files?
And, I have a project with mixed formats, DV and the 7D. Which codec can I use for the DV to edit in HD with the 7D files?

Thank you.

Ryan Hargrave

Ryan Hargrave

@Arsney - ProRes has all kinds of gamma issues. This is probably what you are seeing. There is a company building a software called 5DtoRGB that seems to help in this area but it's just Beta. The more I read about ProRes and gamma the more frustrated I get.

@David - the difference is bitrate. as the 7D has a lower bitrate that LT it should be fine

Ryan Hargrave

Ryan Hargrave

yeah I'd go with 422 LT progressive (if thats an option)

Federico SDC

Federico SDC

Im sorry but regarding the gamma issues, the only codec that has the same gamma as original footage was HDV720p , any idea about this ?

thank you

PRODDK MEDIA

PRODDK MEDIA

How you color correct LT? how is this work proress LT "HELP"

Ryan Hargrave

Ryan Hargrave

same as any other codec. Use Color or FCP's native 3-way color corrector filter.

Jonathan Carre

Jonathan Carre

Does anybody know of any similar processes for Windows? I'm using Sony Vegas Pro but my computer is suffering serious slow-down editing the full HD files.

Kyle Shepard

Kyle Shepard

Same issue for me my friend. I'm using Sony Vegas Platinum.
I'm looking into it now. I'll let you know what I find out and please do the same if you've come across a solution.

El Testigo

El Testigo

More or less got the idea...finally editing with the Proress 422 LT and was going great the first essay but after added some more clips and effects and now is asking me to render after each modification...guess that could be avoid using the PROXY version of the file...can anyone explain me how to reconnect the proxys with the high quality files (422 LT or HQ, etc.)...

Thanks for the help, this post have been very useful...

Jonathan Crider

Jonathan Crider

just right click on the file and hit "reconnect media"

then just navigate to the higher quality file

Davi Santaella

Davi Santaella Plus

We've been working a lot with 5D MarkII and ProRes and here are a couple of the things we've found out:
1) A good way to work in projects with extensive media (like a documentary) is to import your media thru Log and Transfer on FCP using ProRes Proxy. This allow you to work quicker and have more files on your storage at the same time. Once you've finished editing your project just go to Log and Transfer and CHANGE your settings to ProRes (HQ for instance). Go to your timeline select your clips, CONTROL+CLICK and choose CAPTURE. FCP will reopen the Log and Transfer window and ask you to mount the cards required in it. After doing so, it will automatically capture your media in the new resolution/format and reconnect it to your editing timeline. It works great, specially if you have done a good selection of your media the first time you logged it - otherwise FCP will capture long heavy clips.

2) Capturing Canon 5D or 7D clips on higher bit-rate codecs will give you better color separation and depth during grading, as well as during composing - if your project requires extensive post-production. What we've notice is that you want to do keying for instance, HQ files do much better than LT. A similar thing happens on grading - HQ allow better more extensive color correction than LT.

3)PROXY, LT, HQ and 4444 are for very different needs and they should be used depending more on what will be done later (during distribution) than in the process itself. If you're making your child 1st birthday party video to post on the web you may very well run on much less machine intense codecs, but if you're going to air on national tv you might need something that preserve better your quality thru the process... Even so, 4444 is intend for high-end outputs (like theatrical release) and may not give your Vimeo videos any more than hours of rendering.

Although you cannot improve the quality of a lower bit-rate file by converting it to a higher one, you will for sure get the most out of it by choosing a less compressed format. So, if you can (and want) work with Proxy for editing, than recapture only your edited timeline to HQ and get the most out of your images during post and distribution.

Helkin Rene Diaz

Helkin Rene Diaz

mmm I don't understand. What happen if I have the files in my drive?
First am I going to compressor and transcode the original files, then replace the proxy?
Because off course in a project like a documentary, always I download the files to a HD and then format the card.
is an another option for that?
thank you..
And what happen with the synch of the audio files. Do I synch with the proxy files or with the original?

Terence Kearns

Terence Kearns Plus

Brilliant post Davi,

Just reading through this thread, it seems like people have difficulty understanding the fact that the higher colour definition format is for the purposes of data manipulation within the processing stage. Colour correcting, manipulating, effecting processes all benefit from having more data (headroom) to work with.

Case in point, lets say I have some 16bit audio from an MP3 file (128K constant), and I wanted to make a CD (16bit 44.1k). I'd still convert the mp3 data to something like 24bit/96KHz uncompressed audio. I would then do my editing, mixing, apply effects, and then mastering before rendering it out again to the lower sample frequency and aplitude resolution.

Same thing applies to video. Upscale your low-grade inputs to hi-res, munge the data, then export to an appropriate res - EVEN IF IT'S ONLY FOR WEB. The only limiting factors are resources: space, time, processing, knowledge. Obviously if you're doing a quick edit without any colour correcting and it will only ever by for low-res (say SD), then no one will notice if you used low-grade material on the timeline, so it's a matter of perspective and good professional practice.

BLK Digital Media

BLK Digital Media

422 Proxy and LT files are great for saving you rendering time in FCP 7. After you've achieved picture lock and you're ready to color grade your footage, use the "Send to Color" command in FCP to send your footage to color! When you're done coloring send it back to FCP by using the "Send to Final Cut Pro" command! MOST IMPORTANT: Before you send your colored footage back to FCP be sure to type Command-0 to bring up the project settings in Color. Then go to "quicktime export codec and choose a higher quality file type like normal 422 or HQ or 4444. Then render your timeline in Color and tell color to send the timeline back to FCP. The footage has already been rendered in Color (as it would have needed to be even if you started with normal 422 so using proxies are a good thing) so you don't have to re-render once the footage is back in FCP.

Instead of using FCPs log and transfer you can also download MPEG streamclip for free here:
squared5.com/

You can do lots of conversions with this program, including the raw Canon DSLR footage in ProRes proxies and other formats.

Hope this helped.

Best,

Matt

Ryan Hargrave

Ryan Hargrave

Going PR422 Proxy (FCP) -> PR444 (Color) -> PR444 (FCP) isn't a good idea. Proxy is a lower bitrate than what comes off the cameras so you are degrading it from step #1.

Proxy is meant to be a proxy. Cut with it, then swap it's higher quality counterpart before any sort of render (AKA export, Color, etc...).

Stan Parker

Stan Parker Plus

***WARNING FOR EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO EDIT USING PROXY*****

Be very weary of Canon's plug-in for FCP. It is very temperamental, and won't recognize your reels if you switch computers.

Essentially, if you import using one computer, then want to upres using another, FCP will not be able to find your original footage.

I imported footage on two different computers, so now I will have to do my batch capture twice. Additionally, the plug-in has chronic issues with crashing FCP on me. I'm seriously at wit's end here, and thinking about switching to premiere which can edit the h.264 files natively.

Rena Riffel

Rena Riffel

Does the MPEG Streamclip work better than Canon's plug-in? I am using the 7D.

Laura X Moya

Laura X Moya Plus

I prefer to work with canon's plug in because the MPEG streamclip option has changed the color quality by a slight difference. It's also better to keep files organized

donald milne

donald milne

MPEG Streamclip is good, but with 7D footage the Canon plug-in in FCP can transfer the time of day to use as a time code, where MPEG Streamclip does not carry over any time code meta data that I am aware of.

Laura X Moya

Laura X Moya Plus

Hello four questions:

1) is 4444 better than 422HQ for big screen? How so?

2) I keep reading that it's not good to go from low bit rit and update to high bit rate? Does this mean going from proxy to HQ?

3) If I have a lot of footage transcoded as Apple Pro Res 4444, but I want to edit and export faster, and worry about Hight Quality when I am done, should I recompress my footage using media manager to proxy? will this only recompress media that is on the timeline? Or should I log and transfer all of my footage to proxy and re-link?

4) I have 4444 now but it's giving me a hard time when i export and try to upload it to vimeo because the size is (5 minute film is 9GB! ). I use MPEG streamclip but majorly lose the quality of it. help!

Nate Opgenorth

Nate Opgenorth

1) ProRes 4444 and ProRes 422HQ are used for the same purpose except ProRes 4444 is 12 bit vs 10bit so its better if your going to be adding lots of effects or soures of higher quality than H.264 from a DSLR. DSLR's generally shoot H.264 at 8-bit 4:2:0 while all the ProRes Codec's are 10-bit 4:2:2 except for ProRes 4444 which is 12-bit 4:4:4 with an Alpha channel. 4444 is overkill for anything that does not need major color grading and numerous work.
2) NEVER convert proxy to HQ. Proxy's are temporary and you do NOT convert them, you replace them with original media. Generally speaking I do not use Proxies since even my crappy 2010 13" MacBook Pro with a Core 2 Duo can handle standard ProRes and my retina MacBook Pro does just fine. all the ProRes codecs were designed to make editing easier on the CPU. What I do IF I use proxies in FCP X (idk what you use) is choose the option in preferences to make proxies and choose something like ProRes LT for the project. Then change it at the end.

Nate Opgenorth

Nate Opgenorth

When you change the settings at the end in FCP X it then re-renders to whatever codec you set the timeline to with no proxies so when you export its full quality.

3) Never recompress your footage like that. Its just a waste of time, if needed like I said you can change your timeline settings and it will do it automatically but I'm a little confused by your work flow to be honest.

4)Yes all the ProRes codecs are going to be massive. Its recommended that you have a massive hard disk drive preforably external to work off of because the files will be huge. I have a 12minute video I'm working on with nothing special really and its 25gigabytes (its at 2K though). When your done with the video you can either transfer the project to a back up drive then delete it off your computer or just delete it and you will get a ton of space back. Don't upload the whole ProRes file to vimeo, thats just painful...lol. Convert it to H.264 with a media manager or Handbrake at around 10,000kbps plus.

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