I don't think you can look at wicked problems without meshing or without an integral approach. This is one of the fascinating things about thinking what's the value of having integral and its integration of thinking, is that these days the intractable problems cannot be solved by any individual, any one organization, any one sector, any one city, any one country. In fact, we've got to learn how to do it together. And it's only by using the lenses of living systems and complexity, and I think with an integral approach, that we're going to do that. And if we don't do it, somehow we're going to have to invent a way of doing it. We can only be intentional about it, or discover it accidentally.