1. Show Notes and Links:

    Show Notes:
    Amazon Outage
    Should cloud providers OPEN up to fully disclose their backup systems
    CNET Article - "Icebergs in the cloud" PDF Link
    Service Warranty
    Cloud is a threat to IT
    Natural Selection isn't pleasant for the non-selected.
    ServiceNow cloud documentation
    Are cloud providers by disclosing their ops, for transparency sake, now losing ground with competitive advantage?
    NIST Cloud Standards
    Elastic Load Balancing
     Are we passed the TECH bubble?
    Best Buy lays off 650 Geek Squad Employees
    Facebook vs ServiceNow
    Microsoft / Yammer vs Facebook / Instagram this is a billion dollar battle to be relevant? 
    Salesforce, IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, all racing to be social
    Perception is a big deal with tech futures, because of 
    Windows 7 $300.00 Windows 8 40.00 licenses costs are changing so fast.
    Why HR Still Isn't a Strategic Partner
    Friction vs Flow
    John Willis, VP enStratus
    Devops Movement
    Cote and John Willis, podcast on ITIL / ITSM with Chris Dancy
    You own your OWN availability
    Cloud - Do you need to own a data center?
    When do standards really work?
    Devops defined
    Adam Jacobs – Devops - A professional and cultural movement
    Devops is a FAD right now.
    Damon Edwards, Devop Days
    Devops = CAMS > Culture, Automation, Measurement and Sharing
    Tools Devops
    If you can't get the culture right, skip CHEF or PUPPET
    Velocity Conference 2012- Facebook Session – Jay Parikh - "How do you get to a billion users!"
    Eliyahu Goldratt "Beyond the Goal"
    Devops doesn't fit every cultural organization
    Who is culture hacking?
    John Allspaw from Etsy
    Sun Tzu Toyota - You can copy someone’s process, you can't copy someone's culture
    Culture is BS.... people don't understand the word.
    Culture is a NICE way of saying "I'm afraid of people"
    Spike Morelli
    In reality no one cares about culture, NO ONE.
    Tools give us a chance to POINT fingers.  Culture failures don't give you a opt out on ego.
    If you are KILLING yourself at work, maybe the suicide rate is a cultural indicator at your organization.
    No one is exposing the STRENGTHS of cultures.  
    Big data surfing tied to smiley faces and bug bashing
    Hornbill Software HACK day (Innovation Day)
    Velocity Conference and Devops Days
    There is a TALANET WAR right now.
    How do you lose employees?  Why do good employee leave?
    Is it EVER OK to fire an employee for making a mistake?
    Good ITIL / Bad ITIL
    ITIL is about process over people
    Devops is about people over process
    Ben Rockwood
    ITIL = Constraint / Devops = Flow
    Continual Service Improvement is NOT a choice; it's a force of nature.
    Bank Simple - Banking meets culture
    Introverts and the abuse of the corp culture (TED Talk)
    Stupid people suck the life out of me
    Clouderati are just a bunch of talkers
    Facebook data centers
    Netflix  Culture vs Facebook culture
    Ian M. Clayton , Paul Wilkinson  are now mainstream
    tigers and koala bears
    FILDI - F, it, let's do it
    Build SLACK into workflow
    Native RT vs Retweet, why it's important
    A Robot will take your job

    Show Transcription:
    ITSM weekly, the podcast for your news, insight analysis and information from the world of IT service management. Your hosts Matthew Hooper, Chris Anthony and Matt Baron. IT Service Management Weekly, the podcast starts now.

    Welcome to ITSM weekly. The podcast, episode 92. 9 -2. For the week ending, I don't know, we're not good at week. Guys how you doing?

    Good, how you doing Chris?


    I'm wearing my V-neck shirt tonight.

    Okay. It's nice to see neither of you have melted in the heat.

    Now it's absolutely ridiculously hot out there. We have a guest today, John Willis. How do you pronounce it, is it machoglupa like surround sound. Mr. DevOps. So he should joining us soon. Reach out to him. So let's go ahead and start off with some News and a stupid surprise, baboon brass news. So, any excuse.

    I got cloud service. just like blowed away. Okay Hoop what do you got for us?

    Why NewsGator GIO.


    NewsGator for Hooper. Yes, news. News from the CAO's perspective. Amazon homage. I think this is huge news. Cloud is a problem when you don't have contingency. Cloud is difficult to build contingency because you don't own the asset so what to do. So its got people thinking about it you know how can we do a better job and understanding what's going on behind the cloud front.

    And it is starting to beg the question, is this time that cloud providers open up and disclose some of their IT systems and how things are put together? Taking a quote from an article on CNet, it says, this strengthens the argument for cloud providers like Amazon to fully disclose their IT systems to either their customers or independent third party for assessment, testing, and inspection.

    As Yale academic Brian Ford has argued in his academic paper, "Icebergs in the clouds: the other risks of cloud computing" (and I'll put a link to the pdf in the show notes). This pdf is really good actually. It talks a lot about service warranty. And what we need to do to really evaluate a cloud provider's capabilities in providing us the warranty.

    The basic question here is, "is cloud " - I guess we have talked about it because we view it as a threat to IT, but do things like this help us to view More of a partner.

    I don't think I've ever seen those as a threat to IT, that would just be my perspective.

    And I would say that you did.

    To me, it's a, It is a form of outsourcing right, so I mean there are jobs displaced when you buy a Cloud technology. So, yeah I think it's a complete threat to IT. As we understand IT from 2010, so I agree with Matt Lupa.

    You know I just see it as part of the evolution of IT, I don't think it's part of a revolution, I don't think that's happening. Come on, Hooper said it was a threat and evolution is a threat, evolution is a threat, it's a threat to people who didn't evolve. Natural selection isn't pleasant for everyone.

    Oh, okay.

    Yes, I think I agree I just have a different perspective than maybe the.

    No, no you have an evolved perspective You have to stop being so smart. What I found interesting about this, I'm getting phone call during the Podcast. might be John Willis. Give it a shot.

    Shall we pick it up? All right, you guys carry on with the news while I take the call.

    Whoever it is, let's bring him on the show.


    What if it is someone else.

    It is kind of interesting. We struggled with this with Service Now. For the first three to five years, they didn't publish anything. In fact, you couldn't even tell the way their data centers were. Or dater centers, if I was saying it with a Boston accent. But now they've got some bigger customers and the customers are starting to demand, where are they, what are we going to do when this goes down?

    It's business-critical service. I think, or at least IT anyway. And so people need to have the fail order plan and they need to understand that if this thing's going to fail, what are your backup options? I need to know what's supporting those three nines or four nines, and give us some real some real capability to not fail if half of the country is off.

    Part of that though, you're starting to deal with with that level of transparency are they putting themselves at a risk of losing a technical advantage. Definitely. The higher the transparency the easier would be, let's say they chose New York and L.A., then the people in the middle of the country would be going to get posed for bandwidth because you're further distance away, and maybe another provider chooses Minneapolis and the UK.

    And so then People in those locations are saying, well that makes sense to do that. It's sort of like you need to look at from both a co-location and a cloud service per se but I think the real point of the story, from Amazon's perspective anyway, is that this needs to be a cloud standard that we agree upon and that people can in this has some cloud standards and I'll put a link in the show notes to that.

    But this situation's different, right, because Amazon's had outages before, and this outage was caused by some of the storms that were coming up the east coast back last Friday. So, you know, they have some outages that were weather driven and whatever. Failure's going to happen. But the problem here is that this is a pretty big outage for them.

    I mean, it was substantial and lasted hours in duration. It started some time on the 29th of June and carried over to about the first of July for some folks. And a lot of that was, because they didn't understand the relationship between their assets. The root cause, from what they're saying, is it has something to do with what's called the elastic load balance or ELB's.

    The way that Amazon's architecture is, you have these things called EC2's which virtual serversRDS , which is your database layer. You can put ELBs in between there so things can fail over and they can scale out and you could be on different virtual platforms at any period of time. There was a bug in their software that didn't allow this to fail over correctly, dependencies weren't mapped appropriately.

    Traditionally in ITA, I think we understand this, we understand what fail over testing is all about. We understand about availability and high availability point of failure risk analysis, is something we understand well. So if we're going to give these services over to a cloud provider, is it okay for me to ask the questions?

    What is your algorithm for failing over? What is your validation to.

    But did we ever ask those questions to the people we hired to manage our data centers when we had them internal?

    I think it was more common.

    I did.

    Sometimes they did.

    Well, you did. You're exceptional. But again, let's not get too hung up the fact that it's a Cloud outage it's still a human error and that human could have been in our office or some place else.

    Well it's easier to write a check.

    Is this outage a red herring for not asking for the right types of redundancies, regardless of who you're getting them for.

    Well it's like Google says, everything fails at scale. Is it possible to test, like how -

    You're a quote a minute today.

    What's that?

    You're a quote a minute today. well you know you can't test for every possible scenario right and so this something that been Amazon and reality is... you know have they rallied around it and repaired it, the question I always ask is better than I could have, had it been me. Yeah. Unless I am a significantly large and just drenched in money organization I'm not not going to be able to have the use forces to.

    Hm let's think about significantly large, drenched in money, organizations.

    The elephant in the room. Facebook had gone down because of it. Netflix did!

    And Netflix is most people's Facebook. I thought people losing their mind because they couldn't use the toaster filter for too well I mean I think do you use a Instragram helper.

    I have Instragram. do you? Do you use it? i use it to watch my kids. Do you?

    Alright I've got another phone call coming in, it might be chance. Keep going with the News.

    So I think some of the bigger news reading well lately as watching the tech markets it could be that we are past the market bubble. Tech stocks are not doing so hot, as you Noticed over the past few weeks, it looks like it could be heading to a continued downturn, or an adjustment, how the "money-folks" call it.

    I guess it's a wait and see for some of those market trends, but we definitely are on the Downward side of this bubble in my opinion from where we were in the Spring. Best Buy announced today that they're laying off six-hundred and fifty Geek Squad employees. And look at their market presence all together.

    They've just got issues all around. But what's interesting to me Is service now just went to our ITO obviously I'm focused because that's what I work with everyday. It's interesting because, number one it wasn't very well pronounced. I worked with a lot of people that work with servers all the time and no one even mentioned it really.

    Steven Mann was actually the only person that I caught that was actually paying attention to the financial aspects of service now. And It's interesting read how people view everything past Facebook now, like every body was saying in the post Facebook IPO world how are tech stocks going to do and how aren't they doing and I think that maybe drove some of the downward trend in the financial market was the Facebook IPO thing.

    But I don't know, it almost feels like that's going to be our saving grace. That it's going to stop it from getting so big that we all lose our jobs in one fell swoop.

    Yeah, but you know what, there's a big difference It's in between service now, and Facebook. And the thing is, Facebook didn't really ever have a solid monitization strategy they simply have momento they were just too big to fail right, where service now is proving themselves to to be a viable entity in the enterprise they continue to sell.

    They have a clear and present sales and marketing strategy B.

    Right. It's a business.

    They brought in a whole

    Yeah, they've brought in a whole new team; it was a natural of what you've seen tech companies do. It's the type of progression you look at most - from start-up to mature operation. They've walked the progression.


    You know, they've been around for seven, eight years, so this is a completely different circumstance. I think it's doing good. It's still up, right? Thirty or forty percent from there. Yes, but do you think that Facebook is going to save us from another DotCom burst because of this downward trend now?

    The tech markets that I'm talking about in particular are your IBMs, your Microsofts, your Oracles, I mean everything's down right now. It's down percentage wise it's anything from four and a half to, you know, twelve percent, I mean, it's pretty significant dips from the highs of four months ago, so, you know those are your kind of latest options look at it as a benchmark right for or more enterprise technology service now coming out at this point is good for them, I think, are different, uh they're and what people who own stocks in those enterprise platforms want to reinvest in something similar to a space that they know.

    This is a good place for them to find their money. You know, So I think from a Facebook perspective, overall this probably is a consumer side of tech bubble that will that will continue to reset itself from a market standpoint, but I think that's probably ineffective and not so much the start price of Facebook, I really think it's going the position prices, the Instagram purchases, the Yammer purchases, the Skype purchases that we've been seeing, There was a day when you didn't pay over a hundred million dollars for software companies, and now the price is a billion dollars?


    And, I think that's a bit unrealistic, you know, was Instagram really worth a billion dollars? II can't see anybody justifying that that's the case, and when Facebook took the 10% or more tumble, or what is it now twenty-five percent tumble. I think they've lost more.

    They've lost value.

    They paid 1% of their cap for Instagram. I don't get it.

    I get it- they paid one percent of their cap to be relevant. They paid the same amount that Microsoft did for Yammer. We talked about this last time. I don't think anyone realizes how crazy relevance and how expensive it has become.

    Yeah. I think Yammer It was a better purchase than Instagram though.

    It depends about what they do with the Empire.

    Well, yeah.

    I mean someone's saying, are they going to make it Microsoft Sharepoint mobile social platform. You have to step back though and realize that these are completely sell jobs from the lawyers, the brokers, and all the people who really make conditions on these huge transactions. Because if Microsoft didn't buy Yammer, you gonna tell me that they're gonna be more relevant in six months now because they bought Yammer without buying Yammer?

    They're not. In a year and a half from now.

    Say that one more time?

    In six months from now, Microsoft would not be anymore relevant with not any relevant with Yammer then without Yammer. And in a year and a half they could have paid less for Yammer because by then their would have been 15 other Yammer competitors out there. So, the reality is, it wasn't a transaction of necessity, it was a transaction of fear.

    Male 1: pressure and timing.

    Male 2 :Well, all transactions, are transactions of fear.

    Male 1:Sure.

    Male2: You buy a house because you're afraid your family is gonna think you're not as mature as you said you were now that it has been two years after the marriage. No one actually buys anything out of shire shrewd planning. That's a type of thinking that doesn't exist in humanity any longer. I do think it was a brilliant purchase for the sheer perception of, Hey we care.

    I think if it was a me too purchase. Again, we have talked about this on the show a hundred times before, maybe, i feel like we have because I pay attention. But, you know, Oracle pivoted social enterprise, Salesforce pivoted social enterprise. Biggest social software author, IBM. There's not an organization on the planet.

    ServiceNow has Live Feed. Everybody is racing towards how do we get people to collaborate? Now that people are just collaborating differently. if you put point is and maybe it's because I'm out taking phone calls trying to get John Willis on the show live. If your point is, did it actually do anything real for them?

    You know, perception is a big deal, I mean Microsoft in my opinion has to really look at a scary future of their licensing remuneration, of their original how they license stuff. They just dropped Windows 8 from the $300 I paid for Windows 7, to $40.

    Yes, isn't that insane?

    So, again, I think if you're in IT, if you're in service management, you should be watching these purchases, you should be watching these decisions, you should be saying to yourself: I am in a position to lead my organization toward better decisions because I understand how the cloud outage affected it.

    I understand, from listening to this podcast, types of information I should be bringing to my organization. I understand from watching Microsoft buy these technologies, from watching Facebook buying these technologies, I should be focused on mobile only. go back to the podcast two years ago, mobile only.

    Right? Again, but are people doing it? We are in a race against time. And I would say it used to be all about vanity. It was all about saving and looking important. You're now in a race to be relevant so you can feed yourself.




    Well you know, this is a continual change of attitude, right? From where we were and IT even five years ago. It goes well to the tweet that I saw from Shane Carlson. Say a guest first saw this too about HR.


    It's not just IT that doesn't plan itself not to be a strategic partner with the business. The article was pretty funny, I mean I read it and I said you could completely put HR and just take out HR and put IT here, and I think this a common feeling amongst most IT measures. I'll read from the article for just a real quick second.

    It says that every action you take as a, I'll put what it really says here, HR every action you take as an HR leader, ask a simple question, does it cause friction in the business or does it create flow. Friction is anything that makes it more difficult people in critical roles to win with the customer.

    Flow on the other hand is doing everything possible to remove barriers to promote better performance. The question applies to virtually any company and any business that will take you farther down the road faster than the hazy, abstract injunction to become a strategic partner. Even in what appeared to In routine HR responsibilities you can inject the business prospectus simply by asking, whether what you are doing is going enhance the flow of the business, or impede it with friction.

    why is it so difficult to inject the business prospective because HR leaders we feel ourselves to be near the pimple of the organization the organization reports to us it must meet on to for information, documents, and numbers.

    Boy, I thought IT had a problem.

    But, I think this is common feeling inside of IT. They want data, they want information, they're going to have to come to us. We're gonna put in command and control to make sure things are protected and things are governed and a lot of the times it's more friction than it is flow, right?

    Yeah. Look at any ERP system ever. It's always friction, that ain't flow.

    Speaking of friction and flow, what a way to introduce someone.

    I'm an idiot, I admit it.

    Oh, no, you're DevOps, we have you on because you're agile. Welcome, twenty minutes into the show.


    You missed the scumm meeting, I hope you got everything done from yesterday.

    Yeah, right. Well, I was in the thing and I thought I was on and I was yelling because I was listening to your conversation about the people yell out. Can I go back on one point that you guys were making about the outage now that I'm here?

    Well can we introduce you?

    Sure, that'd be good.

    Why don't you introduce yourself, because you're a much heralded major player in the world of IT and everything that's happening now. Well, thank you I just went from idiot to like miracle worker, so, my name is John Willis, I'm the VP you have customer service enabling. We have the company called Enstratus.

    I've been doing IT for thirty years, I probably more recently have been heavily involved in this DevOps movement really rocked right from the ground floor. I consider myself kind of part of the tribe that promotes DevOps for all the right reasons and that's about it.

    We'll talk about all the right reasons in a minute. Welcome. Is this your first live to YouTube hangout? It is, as you can obviously tell, that's right.

    So, I I'm a big fan. You and Kote had me on your show about two years ago and this show wouldn't exist without you two. So, in some ways you birthed me, how does that make you feel? That's great, that's great. Actually there's a few out there Bert, there's the chef food fight guys they give me credit for sparking them to start their excellent chef podcast as well.

    Yeah, and congratulations on the weight loss, by the way.

    Oh, thank you very much, thank you very much.

    Talk to us a little about your view on the outage because I think some of it should be good.

    The point I want to make is I do wanna talk about data loss but it's all interrelated. Ben Black says, "You own your own availability." And so one of the things that I think that the cloud has pushed on us is that there is some magic secret syrup here, where you don't have to rethink. You know, what the Klout is, it lose the barrier to entry owning a data center.

    At the end of the day, you still have a business and you still have a data center. and so it gets tricky at the high end because a lot of things you give up. But, I heard someone in that conversation talking about did we do this before in data centres the good ones did. The good ones had, unfortunately it was a lot more expensive, a lot more complicated but they built high availability DR infrastructures.

    Some of them had mirrored hidden data centers. Some of them just brought a bunch of tapes over to another building which never worked.

    But at the end of the day end of the day, the misnomer or the fallacy of Cloud is that you don't need that stuff anymore, and again, take Cloud for what it's good at which is a familiar infrastructure, easy to get, you don't have to rack and stack but the people who think they're getting a cloud at a bargain basement price I used to stop thinking abut how to run the business and make your business; you know the good ones I haven't read the Netflix review yet, but you know the past major outages, you know, the good ones know how to go around this and you know because we spent a lot of money on people.

    Let's figure out how to get around this.

    And I see that was my point to Hooper was it doesn't matter where my servers are, it's the people who I hired.


    Yes, questions you ask and you time you really focus on what matters.

    But where in the NIST standard does it say that the people you hired this way.

    Oh, that's Idol page, you know, not so much; yeah, yeah.

    No, that's in the HR article, isn't it?

    And that other point about like the I'm not a big I mean I love standards, but when do they really, really, really, really, really work? And I think NIST has set some great foundational stuff, but this idea that we're going to get out of this battle, this thing that's moving so fast and so crazy, that the idea of people are just staying around trying to put Dander's on you know, how many colons should go here.

    How many commas after this phrase. The world has to be very adaptive right now you can do more with something like chess.

    Did your house tilt in an earth quake John, cause you look crooked.

    Oh yeah I am kind of I've never watched it - a lot of live videos.

    I've watched John before and he tells us when he thinks, he's really really really left brained. You've got to get the blood flowing. That's right, it's a new exercise technique.

    Last week we did a dramatic reading where I read, Did you notice Gross put in dramatic reading music. I listen to the show. Yeah, of course you don't . You don't even run a company, as far as I'm concerned. So I see has become and idiot and brilliant in the same sentence. So we did a dramatic reading of the Wikipedia article DevOps.

    So I would like a John dramatic interpretation of DevOps.

    Yeah, you know, I think the simplest starting point is, I've always said it was Adam Jacobs. DevOps is a professional and cultural movement, period. But I think David J. Anderson who's one of the KanBan Frontier guys. I read something of his where he talks more about it being a philosophy. And I think when we look back at the old lean stuff, we see that they talk more about it being a philosophy than anything else.

    But beyond that and those are cheap definitions but the reason I always like this post to start for them first is it's like anything that has this danger being a fad, which DevOps is definitely a fad right now. And that's a good thing, bad thing.


    But you want to always be able to draw back to some kind of a solid ground, you know? Which is, really let's not forget the cultural aspect of DevOps. It has a lot to do with why this movement is so great. Then the vendors try to take over, and you know, that's just a game.

    They are. I mean, I've seen vendors with complete marketing programs around 'they enable DevOps'.

    Of course they do. Yeah.

    You 're going to see expert speakers show up from all these vendors.

    I can see then now.

    Yeah. They do that with Cloud, too. They did that with Cloud and they're still doing it with Cloud. I tell the story, it's just like the stars. They spend their whole life trying to get on camera and getting pictures taken of them and the minute they become famous they start complaining about everybody taking picture of them.

    Well, if you're in a movement and you're pushing really hard for adoption -- you know, Damon Edwards says you can't complain about who adopts you, you know?

    That's why I'm all for foster parenting.

    Yeah, you are. That's right. So, to me I think that one of the things that's probably not in that Wikipedia article, I haven't looked at in a while but me and Damon Edwards a few years ago started this idea, it was after the first DevOps days in the U.S. They had run a couple in Europe and we kinda helped through Velocity and through Damon and myself and a bunch of other people.

    Tried to get the first days out in Mountainview and it was amazing to see like 300 people show up on a dime and all these people be unbelievably passionate about. One of the things I love about DevOps is you can criticize or not, but most people when I explain it to them, you explain it very simply and it will represent complex ideas and nine or ten will get it from the first explanation you know and it was three hundred people that showed up it kind of got on the first explanation.

    And after that we did a podcast and we tried to just sift through all the craziness that happened, the the kind of birth of DevOps in our mind and we came out with this acronym called CAMS, culture, automation, measurement and sharing and we just tried to put not to really try to change the world or say hey this is -

    I like that. So could you break it down for us, culture, automation -

    Yeah, so culture If you don't get this magic that is DevOps, which I'm drinking the Kool-aid obviously, but none of it works.

    You are braking few walls in a giant red suit.

    That's it, but none of it works unless you know... if you nail the behavior patterns that make it work. So you know and some of it is magic, some it is actually black magic but some of it is just you know, there are people like you look at a guy like John Osvar everywhere he goes. He works at Etsy now, he was at Flicker.

    Where he goes, culture follows. And so culture The misnomer about, the things I don't like about DevOps are the people who say, put in this tool in your DevOps. Now anybody who knows what -

    That sounds a lot like ITIL.

    I've heard this before. Well, it is.

    Well, I do actually wanna talk about iTunes and Hold that thought, before you guys explode and blow up here I'm gonna look for you guys, I wanna give you a couple of my theories, and and you guys either break then down or tell me I'm back to being an idiot and throw me off the show.

    We don't want to split hairs.

    There you go. now that's tooling for you. I know how to work a tool. There you go, it's all about the tools. That's the problem with DevOps is there's alot of this Like we're kind of not worrying about, so anyway, cams, I would say if you can't get the culture right, then don't bother putting anything in shaft or puppet, you know that stuff.

    I mean, I know you guys know this, but, unfortunately, right now in the Devops movement we are very tools-heavy on the conversation. In fact ways it's a fear of mine that DevOps might just become another fad. You know, where our correct gravity is, way too much towards the tools. The companies that have been successful, the poster child's for DevOp commerce will tell you first.

    it was all about their culture.

    You know it's all fun and games until you see a headline that reads: DevOps as a service.

    Right, there you go right? And you know it's at Velocity, I was at Velocity and one of the keynotes was done by Facebook. You can hate Facebook or love Facebook it doesn't matter to me but Facebook's presentation was... the title of the presentation was a question. How do you get to a billion users?

    And the whole presentation was about their culture and how they and focus on a culture, how they train managers. You know, it's every part of the DNA. And you know what, the Twit stream, was extremely negative. about their presentation, like as if it was one big old job posting or why didn't you talk about the cool technology?

    And this is velocity, where are you guys supposed to get it? Web operations. Velocity's twitter stream was blowing up, the fact that Facebook came to talk about it, but again if you've got a presentation like the one you're describing. You've got a bunch of people who supposedly espouse cultural change then being negative about it.

    Did you every really understand the word culture to begin with. I think i've become a big fan of Elliot Goldratt, the original Gold. Yeah we had him on last week. Oh there you go yeah well that's pretty magical cause he's been dead for about a year I think. That's why I said nobody. You guys are awesome man.

    I try Hey when I die can you bring me back John?

    Hold hands, we'll light some candles.

    We'll do the John Willis, two puck for Yeah. I think I'll be really smart once I'm fed. I think I'll come up with then for sure.

    You want to stick to the point though? You said culture 'cause the reality is that DevOps every cultural organization. I don't want it.

    Yeah and isn't that why DevOps be successful because out of the gate you're saying this isn't going to work for everybody, so we're going to make it a little bit more prescriptive for the people who are, right? Yeah, I And somebody said to me the other day, and I want to fight this from my core, but you can't ever work unless you it needs for different leadership.

    And unfortunately, you know, there's just a lot of bad leadership out there. And I gotta believe there are half There are small examples of hacks that work. But you're right, I mean the problem with - I did this gig with a large telco about a year ago and there was a DevOps workshop and their culture is so static.

    They got ELA's with large vendors that you have to get fourth level approval to get any other product that is a part of the single vent to ELA, right?

    John, who are you watching that you think is really a espousing, if I can just coin a term that probably has been used. Who's culture hacking? It's actually not enough people. There are people that are very focused on the culture of their business, but there aren't a lot like if you look at somebody like John Allspaw from Etsy.

    He's a poster child for doing things right. don't show up at presentations and what not, but the truth is lot of people don't--just like the velocity crowd--they don't want to hear the soft stuff. They want to hear, because Etsy is also doing phenomenal stuff with tools.


    And the noise level, even though, again, I'm not accusing them of this, but the noise level of what you'll hear at Etsy is more about tools. And here's the point I want to make about Eliyahu Goldratt. Eliyahu Goldratt has a book called "Beyond the Goal" and he talks about why MRP failed, why ERP failed, why ecommerce failed, and what happens is, the early adapters -

    That sounds like a thrilling book.

    Yeah, well it's "Beyond the Goal", but he ties it to the theory of constraints. But more importantly, he says that the early companies get involved in this stuff for reasons pretty much not seen by all the people who copied it.


    Right, and what you wind it up seeing and I'm watching this in DevOps now, you're looking at the earlier companies that got it all right on their culture. And then people are coupling basically their tool sets. And I think, there's a great quote from the father of Toyota production systems, Ohno Tiachi he says that, you know they asked him, "Aren't you afraid of bringing in American companies and looking at your process and all that?" And he said, "You know what they can copy our process but they can't copy our culture." And I think my fear is that DevOps, we're not focusing on enough on the culture hacking.

    And I try to because as more and more people move away from Why don't you start tweeting, everything would just a pound sign culture hack.

    Okay that sounds cool.

    Dex, you know, one IT fails is great but let's focus on a culture hack, because I've got to be honest with you John, I've only been on this show, I was on a show with you and Kote once this trippy thing for three years now with these two clowns. Which he threw under the bus when he was on your show, John.

    I remember the show. I am so sick it was a damn good show, I am so sick and tired of people saying culture! culture! culture! to me it's a red state/blue state Red herring, for I don't understand. I can't even swear, because we are live. But I don't understand crap, right? So I am going to use, the word culture is more buzzy.

    in fatish then DevOps Culture to me is a nice way of saying I'm afraid of people, and I won't want to get over being afraid of people. And be honest and open with where I am in not only my own development, but the development of the organization, the development of my industry and the development of the humans and touch everyday.

    But you can't. Because you're afraid if you actually were out there and you say "we suck at this", someones gonna step on you and you're gonna lose your job, and you've got a family to So I think, if Culture & DevOps and corporate hacking want to get real and get fierce, we need to be ready to say, "If you stand up, we'll help you get another job".

    Of course.

    Because hacking means disruption.

    I agree. I totally, and you know, I hadn't even thought of this, it's funny but there's this guy Spike Morelli and he's kind of big in DevOps in Europe. Before we did the open spaces at the DevOps days and he wanted to prove a point I actually disagreed with him and he proved me wrong. He said that we should stop using, you know, C and cams because nobody cares about the culture, and I'm like, naw, that's not true Spike.

    And he said, watch this. So he proposed an open spaces on culture and out of, for the two days there were probably 50 sessions proposed and probably 47 of them were tools days, 3 of them were culture. And in fact, He said that there was a big DevOps presentation.

    I think this is directly, that you can, it's easy. Most of these people are men, and men are obsessed with tools. I mean let's just look at this at a biological level.

    But again, if you go back and you start piercing, you look at these companies that are successful They get it, and everybody else is trying to copy the wrong things.

    What my experience has been is that people with tools for IT folks. It's very easy. Because if it fails, you work within the constraints of the tool. It's the vendor's fault. But if it's culture, the only way that we know how to change culture in IT is to change policy.


    That is not how you change culture. That's right. You can look at some of the I could show you a hundred different presentations from the last 30 ITSM conferences I've been at, and I can point to where it says, policy, procedure the process, work instructions, this is how we change our culture and every time I go, "Oh my god that's completely not how you change your culture."

    Well, you know how that works. That works at FoxCon. And you know what the FoxCon culture does to people? It kills them. They kill themselves.

    Yeah, it works in Auschwitz.

    Right? If you're killing yourself at work, if you're jumping out of those because you've got so much process to put together for the next iPad, maybe the suicide rate is a cultural indicator at this company. Yeah, I mean if you look at the places that are getting it right, and again, Facebook says it right out blatant: "There's no other way to get to a billion users than managing culture." They just can't do it.

    I mean, that was their, you know, their presentation and I spoke to the guy that runs operations late at the bar. And he was saying like, "We got some pushback on our presentation." You've got to be kidding me? It was a beautiful story. So, the problem is, the guys that, back to your original question, Chris, like how do you do it, who are talking about it.

    There's nobody exposing the strength of it. If you look at, like, what the Facebook has done, or you look at what Etsy is doing, there's a handful of really interesting companies that are building a lot of types of things in their company, and I think it starts with people having fun, having smiles on their face.

    There's a guy, there's a guy that did this thing where every day he made all the people, and this may sound silly but wait until you listen to the end of it. At the end of the day he made everybody put, he called it the smiley board face. At the end of the day he made everybody write one of three faces: a smiley face, a blase face, or an angry face.

    And at the end of every sprint they actually brought it up in the retrospective and tried to correlate some of the bugs. There are companies that run hack days right, this is famous at places like Facebook, where they build into the time, this idea that, some companies as aggressive as every Friday One of our - we have a show in Europe and a show in Australia - but one of the podcast members over in Europe As Patrick Boulder from Hornville.

    Do you know what they did the other day? You would love this. So, they decided to have an innovation day, kind of like you'
    re describing.


    But they broadcast it on all the Social channels so their customers could chime in. Yeah. Not only had an innovation day internally, they made it exposed. So, go to their Google page. I thought to myself that's pretty dangerous.

    It's transparent, it speaks for the culture.

    I don't know.

    There was a company One of the companies I was talking to over the last week, you know last week was pretty much the Mecca for guys that are dev ops. You've got Velocity, and then You have DevOps days for all the people from Logic Motors.

    One guy was saying that they do their stand-ups, they invite their customers to the stand-ups. That do about being bold. But the point I wanted to make about the having fun is I mean one of the mantras now in DevOps community is if you don't work for a company where you're not having fun and you're not learning stuff, you're not doing something?

    I don't know if anybody's aware of this, there's like a war for resources right now.

    Right. Yeah. I mean a war.

    That 's a lot of talent. There's an all out war for talent.


    And I think that's where people need to be a little bit more brave about being bold at where they work. I'm constantly reminded about allocating my time and fitting into this mold, but I will constantly do what I need to do to have fun.

    Yeah . So if you're part of that pool which most people who would listen to this show or listen to anything I would have to say would be part of that pool. If you're not having fun, you know, and management. That's another thing why I think in someways this has to succeed because people will lose there employees because they're not doing new technologies and fun stuff.

    They'll also lose places when they go and hear the attitude of some of these people that are running what I call a DevOps shop, but the model of a DevOps environment. Wow, that sounds like a great place to work.

    I had this thing with John Aspaugh, this was a great session that we had. Basically, it was an open space session, and it says "Is it ever okay to fire an employee for making a mistake?". And it was a heavy DevOps crowd, so the answer basically across the board, there was maybe one or two people who basically said, it's a horrible say blah blah blah blah blah if it's a banker.

    If no ones dead there's no mistake that horrible.

    So then I ask the question. And the obvious reason for not doing that is you don't want to set a tone of the culture. Where you don't want your people to experiment and try things and be bold. The first time someone tries. You tell your boys, "Be Bold." Be bold, be bold. Then you try something and you're fired.

    So then I asked the question, what about the second time they make the same mistake? Do you fire him then? No. And the answer was no. Now I asked, okay, what about the third time for the same mistake? And his answer was no And I was like, okay, gotta put the T time, C sign up, John, You know, we're.

    But there's the thing, we kinda ended the session with this, agree to disagree which is weird, because I never disagree with this guy. You know what I mean? Almost everything he talks about is.

    So is this relief that you just ever fire somebody that they just continually make the same mistake over and over again.

    Well, here's the point. In the hallway, I went up to him, and I'm like, "John, this is bugging the hell out of me." And that point, I had half the room on my side, right, and not that I was trying to win an argument, but at one point I said, "Am I the only one -

    When you're keeping track of the room, you're trying to win an argument.

    Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Okay, so, but anyway so I won half the room.

    Just take it from someone who constantly tries to win arguments.

    Okay fair enough. Fair enough but so then I grabbed him in the hallway and then he gave me the example, and this is how core these guys think in culture. He said, "Here's the thing I was trying to explain and we really couldn't get it." You know how in open spaces, everybody's kind of interrupting, and that's just the nature of the beast.

    But he said, "Here's the thing. In my world, the way this works is somebody makes a mistake, they go out and they figure out what the mistake was. In a retrospective, they go ahead, and they basically explain their mistake to the whole team. And then the team decides how to fix it." And then, if it happens again, so what his point was then they go through that same process and the team decides.

    So the team says, "Okay. The answer is we didn't do this right so we need to do this and this." And then it turns out the next time that outside. So even when you get to third time, his point was, it's always the team's responsibility.

    That's beautiful.

    Now, I don't know how far you can take that, but that is a protection mechanism of culture over anything else. Right?

    There is a hyper protection measure over culture, over anything else.

    Right. Because you know in your success that that is the culture that protecting this behavior pattern, or the culture of being bold and be brave will be protected almost any, in almost any scenario.

    Well, I have a lot of people who question my motives behind a lot of the things that I do. I think Hooper and Beran know me better than anyone on even though they don't spend a lot of time with me. But the culture you're describing there is very similar to what I think we all do, right? So I work inside with my team at my company.then work within side my company but I focused a lot of my time focusing on my net work.

    Alright. So I work for more for than just my current company, I work for my net work. I think to protect that culture that you're talking about it goes back to this idea of king making. I have to always enable everyone around me, no matter how many mistakes I made to be bigger and better than themselves.

    'Cause ultimately, I can't defend myself. But the people around me can.


    Right? So, if I actually am altruistic enough to leverage the people I trust with my reputation. I never have to worry about making a mistake again.

    It's all about growing and learning. And if people on your team are growing and learning through mistakes, then you're growing and learning. That's the definition of culture.

    Yeah. You're one big organism.

    Look back to tribes.

    Speaking of one big, unnatural organism. Hold on tribe-head. We gotta get to his comments on ITIL.

    Yeah, there we go. Stevie Chambers just having a melt down.

    All right. We're a live show, we try to watch it all, we've got boards over so when you have got time every body serious with you they calm down but so here let me say this for but let me get both of these out because this first one might you know then i will get caught up on that because i want to say this good message bad message ITIL.

    Nothing really bad. All right, so I want to say I'm both, and then let's discuss it, if that's fair. So the thing I always say I think that. And I've got some ITIL tops. Not as recent, but back in the day. Back in the early days, you know, I worked for problem management. vendor, problem change. I worked a lot with IBM, when they were originally pushing, back when they actually used have vendors certified, which is kind of silly in the space a little bit.

    So what I say in the DevOps thing, I think is that ITIL is about putting process over people and DevOps is basically about putting people over a process. So when you hit a fork in the road at DevOps, it's always gonna be kind of the people or the culture of the things that work. And the beauty of ITIL was, in my opinion, was that there was a world that had no clue of what it was doing.

    And then we could argue whether they still do our not, but what ITIL brought to this world was, not perfection, but at least a template for the way that things could be done. But that's the negative point, if that's negative. The positive point is that I personally believe, and I think Ben Rockwood, if you don't follow him, is a firm believer of this.

    I think that there is a world where ITIL and DevOps will work beautiful. and it's kind of like again if you guys don't follow TOC but you know there's examples of theory.

    I think Hooper does TOC stuff.


    I taught TOC Troy Dumoulin.

    There's a good book, it's called Velocity. It's combining Lean Six Sigma and theory of constraints. And the story is basically companies been running a theory constraints and TOC for years. I mean Lean Six Sigma guys come in and rake everything up, smack everything around and the whole thing turns into a mess and the end story is that what they should have done is still filed to your constraint and apply Lean Six Sigma on top of the bottlenecks and, you know, and then focused in on bottlenecks and then went ahead and then applied the institute.

    And so I think what we're going to find is this, you're going to be a really nice marriage if we figure out that story. But how to apply, we already see examples of it in some ways. But I think thatare correct. The question is going to be figuring out how do they both live, where they're kind of, by my definition, in conflict.

    Well, I think I want Hooper to answer that 'cause he teaches and he's actually gonna start up and I think that would be very interesting. Beran definitely. But they're in conflict, I believe. Because one begot the other. You couldn't have people over process if you didn't have something that was process over people.

    To me it's the same thing as just what we talked about from that HR article, right? ITIL to me is about constraint. DevOps to me is about flow. Right. So ITIL is about protection and about preservation, and where DevOps is about action and innovation. Right. So they're coming about it from a different outcome.

    And that's what I said earlier I think culturally recognizing that DevOps is not for everybody. Listen, do I want DevOps for my bank? Do I want DevOps for the airplane shop for programmers? I don't know that I do. But do I want it for my startup? Absolutely. Do I want it for my social media company and do I want it for my consumer software?

    Absolutely. I think it just comes down to certain aspects of how fast you want to move, and what levels of risk, and what kind of culture you are building.

    Do you see first the whole idea of continuous service improving 'cause you can't focus on a constraint and fix it without another one arising. So again, I think if we just, I mean John raised a very straightforward question. How do they exist? What does it look like together in the future? I truly believe that that's, you know, trying to figure out what that looks like it probably is a nice way to spend time that I don't have, when I could just say that they're going to exist, because they can't exist without each other now.

    You can't have those three people from Crypton who got banished by Jor-El's father there. The big, tall, goofy guy would have been a bad movie. on his own. The Chick with The Bad Attitude would have been a horrific movie on her own, and Zod by himself is just stupid. Right? So what does that movie look like with them all three together?

    I think building toward a future where they just coexist, not trying to figure out what it looks like or who controls it. I mean worrying about what things are, to me, is almost as bad as worrying about what tools make them happen. We almost need a new movement where it's the theory of acceptance.

    I'm breathing, and everything will be okay. Well that's the thing, again going back to being a Goldratt nut right now is that all his discussions are about these conflicts that get figured out. You know, there's, you know he talks a lot about They don't have a choice, continual service improvement is not choice. It's a force of nature.

    That's right. That's right. Now one thing I did want to say is that, I do think, I honestly, I'm so in the Kool-Aid that I do think that fighter pilots and planes and banks and all that. I think that we're gonna find is that when we get people to work in a culture that we're going to find that we make less mistakes.

    We're going to find that we get more productivity. Personally I'm not rejecting your opinion. But I don't personally accept that. I'm not saying we've figured it out, anywhere as near. But if we can figure it out, and learn how to transform what these companies like Etsy and Facebook are doing to banks that I think we will find higher productivity and quality.

    I completely I think I agree with you to meet transforming banks to act and Hooper's back to the points about banks and aeroplanes and you want them to have that maturity. You want them to focus on these types of decision making. You don't want them to focus on being innovative.

    Well, I want them to focus on risk and I want them to focus on constraint. You know, I want the productivity levels high.

    And to me, I was listening to him say, John, and I was thinking to myself, "That's interesting. Well, what happens if I'd rather fly on a less safe plane that's more exciting, than on a really terribly boring plane that's slower."

    Which it would be?

    What happens if I don't value my current state and I've traded all of my worldly possessions into a way of living and sustaining myself that I really don't care if the bank Well on a more dangerous airplane, maybe you actually get into outer space on.

    Well, but again, I don't even, I mean, there are, like, a good example is this Bank Simple, right? Which is out in Portland right now. As we're waiting, we talked about that on the podcast a few months ago.


    That thing is radically different.

    Right, but I'm not even saying that. I'm just saying, I'm not a scientist. I'm just saying, I bet you we will find out that we will get better quality, better control, and better productivity by allowing people to do more freedom to work in environments where they're not interrupted. To work in environments where they're allowed to actually explore their ideas and so in that, and again, I'm not saying and we've got that nutted in DevOps by any means.

    I'm just saying if we can figure out the patterns that induce that.

    I think we have figured out the patterns. Again, you know, we like to forget the history very quickly. But there's an interesting TED talk on introverts right now that people told me about over the last few months. And the idea is over the last hundred years, that we've gone from an agricultural society into an industrial society.

    We force people into cities, which then force people into offices, and now we're forcing people into the open offices. Where we've taken at least 40% of the culture who are natural introverts and made them work in this groupthink, right? Right. And they're not used to functioning like that. Most innovation comes from solitary work.

    There's a reason I prefer to work at home. It's not 'cause I can't get anything done at work. I can't. We all know that I can't get anything done at work. But, I am affected by people's physical energy of stupidity. I can't be around other people emanating stupidity, it literally sucks the life out of me.

    That's why he dreams up the contest. That's why he has a Ph.D. cleaning his house. She's actually a masters in Physiology but she cleans his house just your energy your vibe of the smartness.

    And I hate the fact my house cleaner's from behind me while we're doing this. But John, I mean, to your point, how do we get those back? How do we get these things back? We need to respect the fact that some people. There's a doctor right there. need not to be working like we're working.


    You know some people, introverts, we don't treat very well anymore and you know this Ted Talk made a brilliant point that, just because you're the most charismatic person, you've got everyone's attention, doesn't mean you're probably the brightest.

    Yeah, no, that's great. I mean I totally see what you're saying. I don't know how to put that in my brain now.

    I'm sorry. I'm around smart people now. So you're elevating me. I'm got some of your energy.

    Well, the conversation is awesome, so that's, but what I, now I'm gonna like when do you write me back? I'm starting to worry about when you're going to kick me off the show now. So, having so much fun. So, no, the thing about Insular it's interesting because I mean there's a certain point I need to look at a tad 'cause there's a certain point you're right.

    We've got a lot of talkers. You know, I love my Clouterati, but they are some bunch of talkers, right? You know, I mean there's some of them that are dear friends of mine But I saw somewhere the other day where somebody asked a question that was just a fundamental thing you would know if you'd ever used Amazon.

    It was one of the Clouderattis that didn't know it. And so that is a fear of ours, becoming such social nuts that like the real smart people the people actually like me really that can talk a good game.

    But we need the people like you, who can talk a good game, because the people who actually know the game are too busy focusing on their body, all right? We need, you know, I don't know. You would think I would know, but I think Hooper is kind of a smart introvert who just happens to dance on the I want to get wild extrovert side.

    Beran, obviously extroverted, doesn't know a grass skirt from high heels. Wouldn 't take him to a dance, but gosh he's fun to hang out and cheat on my wife with. He's the perfect mistress. When it comes right When it comes right down to it, you know, again we need to be respectful then wreck this whole culture BS that.

    It's not BS but we need just to be respectful that certain things will work themselves out. We've made drastically horrific mistakes in managing people and how we put them together. And oh, we'll remove the cubes and that will fix all the problems. Well actually no, it made 40% of the people more uncomfortable, and they now can't function.

    Right? So you know, we could, we could do this for another two hours. It's been amazing, I'd love to have you back on. If you'd be willing. Probably one of the more probably shows.

    Yeah, I know. I can talk about this. I've been trying to figure out. Chris, I do think, I You know, I know you don't like this wag kinda title but I think it is culture over everything else and the companies that I'm watching become nominally successful for starting this set. I think the plumbing.

    And what I'm hoping is people don't miss the fundamentals of their plumbing. We can make fun of Facebook all day long, but the way they're building data centers now, and the way their people are, you know they built a data center in 12 months, and then they turn around almost double in size, one in ten months you know and they're all appointed at this presentation was.

    This is not a fool's problem. This is building a culture where people can move fast, adapt, learn how to work with people. I mean Netflix is a little more militant about their culture, but at least they talk about it up front. They say, "If you're not this kind of person and you're not gonna adapt this, this, and this "Do not come work here." And by the way, if you do and you think you're that kind of person you're not, we are probably going to fire you.

    And I'm not crazy about that, but it works for them. Because, what they wind up having is people that people that stay there. People just really love this, you know, competitive, being the best of the best. So let's end today's show with each of you give me a cultural hack. So give me a line or two.

    Wait. Can we ask John where he got that awesome Carlos Santana picture? No. Stevie Ray Vaughn, dude. Aw, my man! Stevie Ray Vaughn yeah. Have you guys ever seen John play? No I never see him play. But if he sounds like SRV, I'm tuning in. I'm the only person alive today that pays attention. Guys, we had this jam at Dev Ops Days.

    I mean, like if we could do one of your service conferences. We can't have Jan at a service management conference. Oh come on, now. Oh please, these people are too busy looking up things in books. Well it's a lot of recipe books in between songs. It took 12 years to get Ian Clayton to be normal, it took him 10 years to get Paul Wilkinson to be acceptable.

    Oh. It'll take us. I mean, we are so far, it's just ridiculous. I mean, I follow Stevie Chambers. One, because he's an absolute nut, he is absolutely psychotic. I'm convinced of it. Two, Stevie Chambers did something really brave two years ago. He wrote a blog post and his company came after him, wanting to kill him, fire him and everything else.

    It was basically come across that line. And I thought at that point regardless of what I think about Stevie Chambers' opinion I need to support the people who are stand up and lay their job on the line to say something really ugly, right?

    No, it's fine.

    So, that's my culture hack for the day. If you've got it in you, if you can line up three or four jobs for next week, do something radical at work to push someone else forward. Not some process, not some tool, not some project. Find someone who you think has it in them, lay your job on the line and push them forward.forge , a culture act.

    Who? Yeah, Dave Ramsey, a motivational speaker, a great leadership company, in his book leadership. He talks about two types of people: Tigers and Koala bears. He says tigers are ones who, they live without fear. They don't worry about their job they belief so much on themselves that they will figure in out right they walk the line all the time they will take the risk who look very cute and cuddly, but actually can kill a human instantly.

    And people don't realize that about koalas, right? So koalas, they might be quiet, they might be reserved, but yet they're powerful and they're usually doped up. How do you say that. But the thing with it is, koalas, what they gravitate toward and what they The excel app is making tiger shine. They are excellent support, like having an administrative, I had an administrative assistant that is vigilant.a koala and I'm more of ice consumers, more the tiger, I take risks.

    I would not have been successful.

    I think you're more of a cougar than being a trade show host.

    Yeah. Oh, whatever.


    All right. Beran, culture hacks.

    I tweeted it this week. If you need a tool for something and you've got the ability to use it, just use it we needed a defect tracking tool at our work recently, and we didn't have one so I built one and just started you sing it and sent it to the senior leadership and says, "Look, this is what I'm doing.

    I think that's a good way to push innovation." Yes and I know I am talking about tools but you can apply that level. So if you think that something is right, and it's working for you, just do it. I think that's one of the best. And what is the, say Frank say? FILDI? F it, let's do it.

    Yeah, you're my Koala bear.

    So, I like calling that the do now ask forgiveness later.


    I do.

    That's key. There are certain things that you just have to.

    Perhaps, John WIllis.

    I think that the easy ones and then there's my wish list ones. And the easy ones are the ones who are, basically, building slack into the work environment. Which is counter intuitave to most environments. If anything we learn from workflow and all that, that creating slack. Kanban happens to be a good example of a tool, one of many but, that can force slack in the workplace.

    I think it all boils down to things like hack days and places where you can find innovation through the people's ability to innovate by giving them slack time, and not looking, you know, using kind of efficiency syndromes. On the long-term horizon, after this last week's velocity, and you know, having all these discussions about culture.

    You know, I want to think more about what are the things that can be measured you know, and now I get into freak science stuff. But other things that we can measure, the soft things we don't even try. We measure everything, but we don't measure that affects our behavior. We suck at it. We don't even really try.

    And are there things we can do, you know, and something as simple as a smiley face like I talked earlier. But I think we could probably do a better job, and understand what are the things - again, we talk about culture, bad culture, good culture, but is there one person in the environment that creates, like this kind of cascading array of badness.

    Because every morning they, you know, every other person.

    It's the person who does reply to all of you. Yeah, that's right. It's just, you know.

    What the pigments of every tweet as Chris will like to tear people apart for.

    Now I just hate people who don't use native words re-tweet. You know, we can't, we have to end the show. But, I'll tell you one of the biggest benefits of using native re-tweets. John, do you know the difference between a native re-tweet and a non-native re-tweet? You ever heard this? You probably don't even pay attention.

    So some people, if you'll ever see some people, they'll retweet something that says like RT.

    This is attention to Clout score.

    No, it's got nothing to do with Clout. In your tool, you should get this. In the tool I can go in and say, "Matt Hooper", and I can cover of your profile and say, "Turn off re-tweets." Because my desire on some people I follow is just to see their original thought. I don't want to see you regurgitate the other things I'm following already.


    If you not natively retweet, I'm forced to see BS. Sorry. Give me Duncan.

    All right. Cool.

    Thank you, Mike. Fantastic.

    All right.

    So, thank you John Willis.

    I got something for you.


    Yeah . I don't know what that means. Thank you John, we'll have to have you back on very soon.

    I was the head Kool-Aid.

    Yeah. I'd love to come back. Next time I'll actually figure out how to get on Google+ and all that good stuff.

    Dude, there have been people watching you live Right now. This is you're.

    Hey everybody.

    No, I think I'm gonna propose that we maybe change the name of ITSM Weekly to Cam's Weekly.

    Nice. I like that.


    Yeah, because once we figure out the culture thing, ten years from now, we can start thermal automation, measurement.


    I have a Pinterest board I just created called, A Robot Will Do Your Job.

    Love it.

    Where I actually taking all these pictures and I side-by-side them with the human that used to do it and the robot that doesn't know. We've got to be very careful with this automation. Next time on Cam switch John Willis.

    Can't we just automate the cultural change?

    We are, it's called fair enough. Okay. So we'll see everybody in two weeks. I'm gonna go ahead and end this broadcast. Talk to you guys soon.

    See you. Have a good week.

    Thanks, John.

    Thanks guys.

    We'll see you guys.

    This was ITSM weekly, thank you for listening. For more information about this podcast and ITSM news, go to ITSMweekly.com

    # vimeo.com/45480588 Uploaded
  2. Show Notes & Links:

    Show Notes:
    ITSM Weekly Podcast Top of the World Premier
    Hank Marquis looking for ITIL training (Jobs from Global Knowledge)
    Evernote Activity Stream
    Microsoft purchases Yammer vs Facebook purchasing Instagram
    itSMF Fusion 2012, Where the heck are the MEGA sponsors?
    IBM Pulse
    Rejected from itSMF
    What makes someone "ITSM Practitioner" Practitioner Radio, the REAL ITSM podcast?
    Axios does Social IT webinar
    Does Axios "borrow" a lot of material? Shame.
    Who's bigger your internet fans or the LAW? How the Oatmeal is changing the game.
    ITSM Extreme Make Over
    Sophie Klossner Retires from HDI
    Sophie Klossner on the Podcast (July 2010)
    Send Sophie a note and thank her for her contributions.
    IT Consultants don't create innovation Article
    Nancy Regan and psychics
    Dancy's World, the Blog helping to define and exploit the bull crap going on in the Social Web.
    Apocalyptic Enthusiasms from the IT Skeptic
    Dramatic Live Reading, Edict Five, Email is a full time JOB!
    SDI Conference
    Ovum ITSM Conference
    The IT Service Desk / Help Desk of 2017-2050
    James Timpson, Keynote
    Barclay Rae at SDI
    The Service Desk Inspector
    The Real Gene Kim
    itSMF New England Event
    When IT Fails, Novel and Event
    50 Shades of ITIL
    Serena Software's Fake CIO account
    Kanban for ITSM
    The IT Skeptic is hot for Kanban
    "Stop starting and start finishing."
    The IT Skeptic, Service Catalog Meltdown Article
    G2G3 Simulation
    Dr. Suzanne Van Hove
    ITSM Prism
    ITSM Standard to show the metric of Value
    What is DEVOPS, dramatic reading from Wikipedia.
    Kinsight (Kinect tool for remote)
    Ivanka Menken, Intanglible Assets tweets
    The Ivanka Menken Blog on IT Assets
    What is the DEEP security value to Social Media?
    The new currency isn't money, it's access to information.
    Windmill Ted Talk
    Fiat Currency is wrecking the world economies
    Best and Worst Cities to Work and Play CIO.com
    Internet Explorer Tax? Pay more for using crappy browsers.
    Dotted Line Reporting
    After 17 years, I'm sleeping with the enemy
    IT the World Streaming Conference
    Big Shout out to Carlos Casanova
    itSMF USA podcast

    Show Transcription:
    ITSM Weekly, the podcast bringing you news, insight, analysis, and information from the world of IT service management. Your hosts, Matthew Hooper, Chris Anthony, and Matt Baron. IT service managment weekly, the podcast starts now. Welcome to ITSM Weekly the podcast, episode 91 for the week ending, we'll make it June 20th, because we're always a little bit in the future.

    Something like that. How are you guys doing?
    I'm Chris Hansen with Dateline NBC.
    Those are the 5 words I never want to hear.
    Past 5 days have flown by for a clean June 20th.
    Yes, well said.
    We're going to go ahead and record today we have a very special guest on. That special guest is my invisible friend. No. Let's get going right with some news Darren, do you have anything for us?
    Tons. We should mention Top of the World premier. Another podcast. You can listen to Aleruses' real voice, if you so choose. I thought Debilling did a pretty good job owning that. We'll see where that goes. It's kind of fun to listen to the Swedish accent or the Norwegian accent because I get a lot that around here in Minnesota.
    Yes, I thought it was a very good show. I thought Ross did a nice music is custom for ITSM Weekly Top of the World edition. And somebody even made fun saying it reminded them of that old song "I'm on top of the world looking down on creation." Oh well.
    Yeah, it was a good show. I do not know Hooper, you haven't had a chance to listen to it. You're still recovering from the drama that was, I don't know, the situation with math challenge.
    In your new office that's kind of nice.
    I'm in my new office, yes.
    So, tell us a little bit about this office you're in now.
    It's in Kabul, that's why in a tent.
    You're in Kabul.
    No, my new office is my back yard. Beautiful here.
    That's nice.
    What a beautiful day it is. As a kid did you ever camp in the back. Oh, wow. That was really nice. Maybe we should do a podcast completely outside once.
    We should.
    I'm down. Yeah. I'll go out right now.
    Yeah, we used to do that as kids I grew up more in the city. So camping for me wasn't as much of an experience as it would be for my kids camping in this backyard.
    Every time I camped as a kid, it always turned out awkward for everyone. Yeah. I'm sure.
    Every time I've podcasted as an adult, it turned out awkward for everyone.
    That's right. I would always hear,
    ...to wrestle you so freakin' bad. I want to wrestle you so freakin' bad.
    It was just one of those things as a child it just never worked out well for anyone.
    Yes. It's kind of like teaching ITIL.
    Speaking of teaching ITIL, did you see [Hay Marquois] is looking for ITIL trainers?
    No, I didn't. I missed that. Where is, where did he land right now? he's back at global knowledge we talked about it last week, but I wouldn't want you to pay attention while you're recording. Not while you're recording, before and only before. Yeah, what's funny if you read that tweet in England, it means he's looking for altoid sneakers, which is awkward for everyone as well.
    Yeah, trainers. What do they call them in the UK, teachers?
    No, they call sneakers trainers I thought. Or maybe they call sweatpants trainers.
    I would think that they'd call trainers sneakers.
    Terrible. OK, so other news: Evernote to release activity stream today.
    I saw that, but it looked like it was just for windows.
    Oh, really I did not see if it does. 'Cause it's not on mine. I saw you tweet that you were excited about it.
    I thought, It's just on the Windows client. What are you, backsliding?

    Another reason that I have to install VM again. Or another reason just to actually pay attention to what you actually click on and read.
    Come on, Chris. Don't give me that. If it's on PC, it's coming on Mac. I think it's a great idea. I think everything should have an activity and if you disagree with me, I know you're lying.
    Dude, I'm still overwhelmed with what you like something from Miami Vice Circa '91. We got like Crockett and Tubbs.
    Is that truly a sports jacket, I should have put a sports jacket on.
    If I'd got the memo I would have. You've got a little bit of man. If actually had the time to read the show notes before we recorded I would have.
    Yeah. I won't give you a hard time, I know you're still recovering. So I guess other pseudo-industry news, so Facebook wanted to become relevant, so they spent a billion dollars on Instagram. Microsoft wants to be relevant, so they spend a billion dollars on Yammer.
    Whoa . I hope it gets more enterprises using Yammer, because it's a part that is infused in a lot of enterprises.
    You know it would be funny. I wish that Microsoft would take that billion dollars and actually fix their whole life platform which was already a social network, and they could have actually used it to integrate better with Groove, right? So maybe if they just stopped blowing money on other companies and just fixed their own stuff, that would be a little helpful.
    I remember Groove. I really liked Groove.
    Groove's great.
    It was a way that I could have document on my machine but it was also on your machine, It was like Drop Box before Drop Box.
    That's right, yeah.
    Groove's a phenomenal technology. Microsoft has picked up so much phenomenal technology and they just destroy it.
    It sounds familiar!
    Talking about BMC.
    So I thought it was really interesting I got an email from ITSMF Fusion. I think you wanna get forward in, and actually we could, to examine why actually that's Edgar Allan Poe. No different. But to figure out why they changed their hashtag from Fusion 12 to SM Fusion or whatever that name it is. But the thing I found most interesting about the ITSMF Fusion, if you're going to that event, here in North America down at the Gaylord Texan, again two words you never together.
    The platinum sponsor, there's only one platinum sponsor for ITSMF Fusion Guess what mega company is the platinum sponsor? I may know who it is. Who is it? Merryville Technologies. So Merryville Technologies Technology is the platinum sponsor. Guess who the next level down, gold sponsors. Service Now.
    Isn't IBM one of them? Yep. Serena Software? Nope. will kill this game. Skull sponsors Axios, IBM, and Main Engine, Axios by the way just released...
    I said IBM
    Yes, I know you did. What?
    He said yes to that. there, you happy? Remember, I'm another generation. I need to be affirmed every 30 seconds. That's what Mrs. Barron says. And then some response was you've got no consulting portal, our friend Mainville, people start x-ing Bronze sponsors, service now, what i thought was real interesting thing about that was all the, you know, companies you considered bigger have settled down to the bottom, and then, you know, the mix is there, which kind of makes me wonder We see a lot of the big players missing from shows CA?
    I don't even think CA's on the list. No they're not. Maybe companies just get so big that they don't they don't need that type of exposure any more at these conferences. Why do you think this looks so backward to me? Well, I know IBM pulled out a few years ago of the show because they had their owned show going on at the same time.
    Pulse Yeah, Pulse. What was that, eight, nine, ten? They all blur together, I can't remember.
    Did you say Vicki I said they all blend in together. Who's Vicki Vale? Yeah, so check that out I thought that was pretty interesting. I will not be speaking at Fusion. Did you Did you submit? Of course I submitted. You got rejected. I wouldn't say that. I would not say rejected. I would say I rejected them.
    Oh, okay. You asked them and they said no, but you showed them, What do you think I'm doing now? Yeah, I'm sure they're all more of their members listen to this than actually go to that show. So, interesting question from Twitter, somebody by the name of CoopsScotty wanted me to ask you both. Okay, dumb question, but what makes ITSM practitioner or ITSM.
    What makes ITSM practitioner? That's the question. Okay, dumb question, what makes ITSM practitioner? So Hoop, Baron, for those people who say we don't ITSM enough I think the term, we complain about the term because of the fact that there were those who were consultants versus those who were practitioners and we were differentiating between a practitioner who was the person within the organization who is actually fulfilling IT service services, right?
    They're the ones who are supplying the delivery or the outcome of the IT service. As opposed to a vendor who might have products or or a vendor who might have services that is augmenting or adding some value to that service supply chain. And we take issue with it, I believe, as a as the three of us, that we are all practitioners if we practice in some form, delivering a service that enables technology to supply a business outcome.
    So why are we differentiating?
    I don't know. I just thought he had a valid question. He wanted to know what makes someone an ITSM.
    It's a good question. It's a good question.
    And if I just started listening to this show and heard us speak about it, I'd be like, "What in the heck are these guys talking about? That makes no sense." I really think some of it's come up on the show, more from the fact that we've mostly had vendors on. We've had more vendors on vendors and I hate that term vendor too.
    But people who are an external provider of service as opposed to the ones who are internal. We've hadWe got a few folks from companies, but we mostly had people from product companies or consulting companies. Well, Tori do a little radio show called practitioner radio. I mean, are we lying when we say that?
    Just because it's not radio. Yeah, you're liars. I'm okay with that. That last part was really good, too. I liked Troy's point about in-sourcing that it's not about getting their services into your company. It's about getting people into company and making them apply to your rules and using your systems.
    Not necessarily just saying, "Send out all your tasks". It's not outsourcing. It's good stuff. Axis had a webinar, two webinars this week with ITSM queen, our friend Sharon Taylor. She's become an expert on social IT now, her and a few of the gardener folks, but what I've found really interesting about the presentation was, they tweeted out not one, not two, but three.copy of my quotes.
    So I've got screenshots of them all, I'll put them in the show notes. Actually if you want to borrow my material, I mean, not a problem, just make sure you ask me for it.
    You put it on Twitter. Or retweet.
    By the way, Axios, yeah we won't say it, I forgot we can't bleep now that we're live. It's not that they read my tweets. They actually took stuff from a presentation and read it word for word as if it was their own.
    Oh, it wasn't tweets?
    Well yeah, I wish it was that nice.
    Do you know why? Here's a funny story, I won't name the company.
    Why not?
    Because I won't.
    Alright. Oh you still need funding.
    It was a previous partner of vigilance they actually took a deck that we had put together, took some of those materials out of it, put it their own presentation. And then when I showed up to present my materials, which had the same material, they followed up with a cease and desist letter to me to stop using materials which they basically stole from me.
    Wow. Where I had to go back and ask them to please produce the original materials and who actually created it and produce the name, and they couldn't.
    That's like what's going on with the Oatmeal right now, have you guys seen that?
    No, tell me about it.
    So the Oatmeal's like a comic book site and basically there's another site. It's called Funky Junk and what Funky Junk does is it's like any other Pinterest or regurgitation site. You take funny stuff and you post it. So this bunch of people who post things they find that are interesting on the web.
    So Funky Junk had a bunch of the oatmeal cartoons actually on their site and the guy that runs the Oatmeal just kind of wrote on his site, hey, it's nice of you you steal my stuff you could at least say where it came from. Long story short, I'll put a link in the show notes, Funky Junk retained a lawyer and then sent the oatmeal a letter.and then the last paragraph of the letter says, according to this demand, you are hereby to perform the following remedial acts on or before June 12.
    Remove all mention of FunnyJunk and funnyjunk.com from The Oatmeal, your website, and any other you have control of. And deliver a check for $20,000 payable to the order of FunnyJunk, LLC. to this lawyer. So what The Oatmeal guy did was he created this comic and started a fund drive. And what he decided to do was he wanted to raise $20,000.
    Original demand. Take a photograph of it. And then donate it to charity. In eleven days, since he has retaliated, he has now on the Indiegogo fundraising site, raised 169,688 dollars.
    Yeah he hit the 20 G's in an hour.
    It's brilliant, his comics are fantastic.
    Good for him.
    I didn't give any money though. I would if you could crowd source your ITIL project.
    You can. Just post in on back to ITSM and people will answer your questions.
    I meant, like fund it. Since like companies are actually gonna fund it.
    Oh fund.
    Well, that's what we try to do with ITSM Extreme Makeover. Yeah. Some sad news in the IT world. We learned this week that Sophie Klossner, also a guest on the show, from HTI, and that's North America's... I'm just taking time to explain all the references this week HDI's just a lot of Klonopin this morning.
    North America's service and support organization. She's retiring as of the end of July.
    From HDI or altogether?
    Now that does not say. It just says, "With a heavy heart, HTI will be retiring after 20 plus years with Think HTI. Please give us your favorite Sophie moment." So, I was shocked. It took forever and no on put anything, but I put one out there. If any of our listeners know, or are an HDI member, of have ever met Sophie seen Sylvia at a conference, make sure you head out to the website.
    I'll put a link in the show notes where you can check that out. Or if you're watching on the Livestream now, you can check out HTI Connect and you'll see something from Dan Orrly right there.
    Good for her.
    Baron, you look bored. So, what are you writing?
    No. I have to write it down, so I make sure to put my memory on. And I saw the post. I just didn't post right away because I had to think about it for a while.
    She's a good kid, you know?
    Can you hold on while I pull up a notepad and gather some notes on what you're about to say?
    Come on. Do not. I need to write things down because I forget. I have ADHD. Squirrel!
    Prove it Snort an Adderall right now. I met her lots of time, she always remembers who I am. Maybe not my name, but she always remembers my face.
    Any news from you before I move on.
    A fantastic article about this CIO says that IT consultants don't have any innovation. They don't innovate in this enterprise anymore, so. So a CIO is telling the world that IT people or IT consultants don't know innovation. That's nice. He says when he needs real innovation he talks to entrepreneurs and start-up owners.
    And Nancy Reagan talked to a psychic. I mean, I don't see the relevance of this. And so, I think it is an interesting article because he's obviously choosing the wrong consulting vendors, it's really what it is.
    Or, he's just trying to make headlines.
    Who is it?
    It's possible.
    Don't say 'cause with my luck, "That's a freaking customer" or something.
    Equinix? They might be.
    I have no idea what you're talking about. so we'll move on. So have either of you had a chance to read my series over at the ITSM review called Dancy's World?
    Wait, I thought that was just a collection of of your posts.
    This is Martin Thompson's Yeah.
    I read some of it.
    Well, thank you. I've done five now they seem to be very, very provocative. I think that would be the word.
    What I find most interesting about this is that last night, someone asked me, "Why are you doing that? Why are you writing those over on his site?" And literally guys People think I'm a...
    Yeah and some other bad words. So I thought I need a place where I can actually blog like the monster people paint you to be.
    So you should be a witch on his site and been a, what did Skepp call you? He called you something.
    I got it in the show notes today. He referred to me as an apoca-.
    An apoplectic enthusiasm.
    Apoplectic, yeah, enthusiasm, yeah. I don't know what he was trying to get across there. But I We would do a dramatic live reading each week from Dancy's World.
    Awesome. All right. That's a fantastic idea.
    OK. Do you mind? Is that OK with you?
    No. OK, wait, wait. Can we entitle this deep thoughts with Dancy?
    So this week is edict five and edict five is entitled in 2012 processing email isn't a skill, it's a full time career and an excerpt from edict five. People have been pronouncing the death of e-mail since the first email was sent. I'm sure with 100% of my futuristic talents, the e-mail's not gone anywhere.
    But e-mail as a skill, once it's created and sits in a container called your e-mail, your inbox is actually a dead skill. This is not because it's going to be useful moving forward. It's because in a sharing economy, we need to do more create silos of dead knowledge. I squarely blame the baby boomers, who used metrics from the nineteenth century factory mentality from preventing this depression in knowledge workers.
    I believe deeply in the organic nature of things, the rise of skills and the death of skills. Unfortunately, no one is running around screaming learn to create non-dead things. Think about it. Even a Microsoft Word document is dead. Where do you share this document? How do you collaborate on it? To make matters worse, will then take that word document, put it in an email, and send it to a peer.
    It's like you're tying a papyrus to a pterodactyl and letting it free from your cave. That's been this week's dramatic reading.
    I love how you're able to turn it on and out, Chris.
    You just say that all the time, sweetie. All right. So, I'm heading to England tomorrow. I'm keynoting at SDI in an Ovom conference over there.
    Who are you keynoting with? Who are the other keynotes?
    SDI, I'm doing the service desk of 2017. So, basically I've built a deck around supporting the first versions of AI. So, what do you do when a computer calls you. And then moving through to bio-ethicism, so supporting people who are hybrids all the way through supporting robots. so I think it's really awesome that one of your co-keynotes is a guy named James Timson.
    Yes. How did you know that? Well, 'cause I actually prepped. and so this guy James...That's a lie. We all know it. I actually really did prep. James Simpson, he never asked me if I wanted to do news. James Timson actually...After five weeks, I gave up. That's called a trend, right? So here's really interesting so I'm reading the bio on this guy, James Timpson.
    I guess Timpsons are all over the place. They're a family business in the UK. There's a ton of them. So, what are they known for? Well they're known for shoe repair, which is interesting, watch repair, engravers and key cutters. So what's really interesting is what are they also known for? Well they are the largest recruiters of ex-offenders in the UK.
    Whoa. So they have stores that cut keys into watch repair and they also hire people who are criminals. Former criminals. Reformed criminals. Yeah. Reformed Criminals. I guess it makes perfect sense. Does it say reformed? Or what does it say? Does it say reformed, or what does it say? It says ex-offenders.
    Ex-offenders. I was an offender but I quit. Or me and offending were together, but we're not anymore. Everyone's offended someone. do you think they go to Xavier's School for read-a-mind? Well, I'm sure that there's like a Carnegie Mellon for crooks and the UK.
    Yeah, well there's one in America called Harvard.
    This is true. They usually end up becoming politicians. Yeah. We can't talk about politics. So...I saw He's also going to be one of your keynote speakers. He's just presenting, he's not a keynote. Please don't affect my ego like that. You're sharing the stage with Barkley Ray. No, Barkley Ray is sharing the stage with me.
    You know Barkley, just hit him when he's there. I love Barkley. Yyou know it's really funny. Three years ago Barkley came up to me in Waterloo Station in London. He says to me, he just left Axios at the time and he goes, "Chris." You know, I can't do a Scottish accent. I can't do a Scottish accent, so I make him an old Jewish gay woman.
    I have to ask you - how do you make money doing any of those, with any of those tweets and stuff? That social media just doesn't make sense. Why would anybody do that? Yeah and then a year later he's the service desk inspector with a TV show. So...Get into my belly. Get into my belly, get into my.
    Wait we just.
    Shut up I just forgot it was live. So Hooper, you rate into our friend the real Gene Kim.
    The real Gene Kim what a guy, what a guy.
    So you have to say that you're paid to.
    Well, we're not sure we're disclosing that yet, Beran. But, yeah, he is fantastic. He was a great presenter at ITSMF during once which we had a pretty good turn out. I was actually pretty impressed. And he did a great job talking about Deb Ops, just nails it. He so gets the point of operations and IT operations.
    So, it was a privilege to finally meet him in person.
    Oh, you'd never met him?
    I had never met him before, no. I mean I'm a huge visible ops fan. In every ITIL training I've ever given, I always talked about fragile CIs and had to make sure that people knew that that actually wasn't an ITIL term but It was a real world term that works and you should remember this after the test.
    It was great to meet him. So I ended up...we ended up chatting a little bit. I had the opportunity to take him to the airport. I told him I'd give him a ride. I'm riding in your car. You turn on the radio, you're pulling me closer, I just say no. Yeah, I Absolutely sure this the image that Gene wants to have of the.
    Of the Pointer sisters.
    Now was it in the hoop. Was it in the hoop, do we have the same thing I wrote in?
    Okay. I don't you own. No. Yeah. Nope. Neither did he. Nope. No, I no longer drive fancy cars. I have a Hyundai Sonata. A Hyundai. How do you pronounce that? Hyundai? Hyundai? Yeah. That sounds pretty fancy. Yeah, you add some extra syllables to make it more relevant. Yes, it's like Target. And Harororo.
    so Gene is writing a novel. This is really exciting news. When IT Fails? When IT Fails. And he gave me the opportunity to do a review on it and to read some of it and give it some feedback, which I found to be a really nice compliment. I dug into it, started reading it, and gave him some feedback. He had a submitted so I couldn't get too far, but boy, he's got it nailed.
    I'm reading the book, I found myself yelling at the people in the book, like come on you idiot, you know that's not how should you be releasing something. It is such a book for people who have been in IT Operations, VP IT of Operations or Network Administrator. So it's fifty shades of change their minds though.
    Yes, I kiss in porn What really interesting is a year ago he gave me a draft of this book, a year ago. And I was going through it, and I came back to him and said, "to build a marketing plan around this, right now you need to create all of the characters in the books as twitter accounts. And over the next year, have this roll out.
    No one listens to.
    And you should have created LinkedIn accounts for them.
    Dude, of course.
    Actually got them hired in different companies and.
    They were awesome.
    I mean it's Serena dog, which is Serena's. It's not even the head of their CIO. It's the character who plays the CIO for Serena. And if he's real but Jean King can write real characters.
    It's good though. You're gonna love the book. It's actually very well written. I give him so much credit. You know writing a book is hard enough, but to write a novel around ITSM, and kind of like IT-focused and for geeks, and not have to explain what a Sen is and all that kind of stuff, I mean that's brassy, so I applaud him.
    I think that's great.
    It says a lot about the industry too, that we're ready for that type of thing.
    But even beyond that, I tell you, as an individual so, I got the opportunity kind of share with him what were doing with smack, and he broke out in to this iPad frenzy and he started to show me this tool he built called Tweet Scribe which I'm now using which is awesome. I don't know if you've seen it, Chris?
    Of course. You do know who I am right?
    Yeah, yeah. You're such a snob. So he breaks into this interviewing process that was just fantastic. He gave me all his notes. He told me, this is how you have to interview people to get requirements. This is how you have focus on the use case. This is how you build a story and he also talked about this Con bon theory during ITSMF .
    Was it Con bon? I thought it was Cobon. He called it Con bon. If he pronounced it Conbon, that's right then. I mean, it's like, if he were to say horrible is pronounced horrirrible, it would actually be legitimate. Right. Cam-ban. Can-ban. The IT skeptic's all hot for Can-ban. He's a lot closer to Asian than I think the three of us are so I'm gonna go with kanban.
    You know, you don't have to make it racial. You know what? I'm gonna play the race card on that one. Play the race card. So Next you'll be telling me I'm a fairy.
    No, I'm not gonna go there.
    All right. So kanban theory, the work in progress piece of it, you can only have so many pieces of work in progress. And so here's an awesome expression that I have been saying over and over again since then: "I need to stop starting and start finishing".
    Yeah, most people call that work!
    No no no no no no no no no.
    No, I'm just kidding.
    It's not work.
    I know, I know.
    It's accomplishment. See I'm a very hard worker and I work a lot.
    I know, I know.
    I don't accomplish anything.
    Do you know what I have sitting on my desk? I'll show you how nuts I am. Look what's sitting on my desk.
    Yeah, it's holding your monitor up like.
    No, the other day I was actually working on some service catalog stuff believe it or not. Can we talk about ITSM?
    Okay Frank.
    No, so the IT skeptic, whatever his name is there, had a meltdown the other week and wrote this article about train stations and menus and service catalogs as if coming down with stone tablets error from. Did he talk about IT services at all, or is he still on a kick about the fact that, or has he finally succumbed to the fact there is no such thing as an IT service.
    I have no idea what he's doing.
    Oh,It's just, I hate the whole service catalog conversation, I'm tired of it.
    Unfortunately I have a day job now so You don't argue as much?
    It's amazing how much nothing has changed in a decade.
    Yeah so, tweet it.
    NO Now, I am very excited to potentially be involved with another G2G3 simulation.
    How is that gonna work?
    We've got a woman named Susan you know who she is, Susan Vanderholf Vanderhoven Oh yeah She was on, she's one of those ones with the 100 buttons Yeah shes got alots of those All black betty bam ba lam, Oh thats something else So hopefully were going to get her up to a client that we're working with, as I mentioned from consulting with us, compliance process partners Valerie Rajh and J. Martin, good folks, good Good team. Good team. Good team. Good team. So looking forward to that. Yes, Suzanne is on the board and I know she has something to do with Prism.
    Yes. Which was a wildly successful initiative. Did you see that tweet I had about the Boston consulting firm and IBM. Is it IBM or is it HP? Two years ago they came up with a standard for measuring IT Service Value. Have you heard about this standard? He remained in business and didn't get laid off.
    Have you heard about this standard. Have you heard about it?
    No I missed that. I apologize.
    Of course not, no one heard about it. They spent, like, 150,000 dollars Now you know how I feel when I do the news. He's sitting up there getting upset with us because we don't know some obscure standard he prepped three days to tell us all about. No, the point is that you don't know what it is. Did you guys read my recent post about Jonathon Feldman's how an enterprise needs to work like a startup.
    Where he interviewed Eric Ries. Did either one of you read that one? Did you? Did you?
    Hooper, Baron and I don't even follow you any more.
    I don't. I can't.
    How am I going to hire my PHP developer if you guys don't?
    Your self-deprecation is hilarious. Oh, you're one to talk. So tell us about your standard that no one's heard of.
    Well, I tweeted it two years ago. That they spent all this money on this standard, it was a $150,000 or something to develop this standard. And Memolane reminded me that I tweeted it. And I was like, 'Oh, OK.' And so I searched for it. You know, has it gone anywhere? Who is using it? No one's using it, no one's heard of it.
    Where did all this money come from? It's public sector money and it's just wasted.
    Sounds like big government at work.
    Yeah, sad.
    It was really funny. While you were talking about Gene Kim I thought I'd bring up the Wikipedia entry for DevOps. Have you guys ever looked up what DevOps is in Wikipedia?
    I have before, yeah.
    Would you like to know?
    Dramatic, dramatic was dramatic, DevOps is a software development method that stresses communication collaboration integration between software developers and information professionals. All right, that's been your DevOps dramatic reading. What the hell is wrong with me? Alright.
    Its funny google hang out like makes you quieter now because you yelled so loud and now you're quieter to the rest of us he's being really loud.
    I can't get over that you're wearing that jacket and a t shirt. I need to look more professional. Someone ribbed me because all I wear is t shirts when we're recording this.
    What's wrong with wearing T-shirts while we record this?
    I'm actually wearing my first V-neck because I got my back waxed so now I can wear things like that. Well no, it was getting on my nerves because as I get older I get a little fuzzy up on my shoulders.
    Yeah, I get it, trust me I get it.
    And I look over my shoulder, to look in the mirror to make sure that I get that parting glance just correctly.
    Yeah, you look like a bantam. Oh, goodness. Can we get some hair gel out and do up my shoulders? Another cool use for the Kinect, someone came out with this thing called Kinosite and it keeps track of where a remote is. So if you lose it in the couch, it says, hey, it's in the couch. You know, the places I lose my remote Gross.
    Hey, what did you guys think of the Ivanka Menken CMDB of intangible assets thing? The thing that I invoked her to write like the power of Christ that compelled her.
    Good, thank you.
    It was really funny because she was like, Chris Dancy made me write this, and I was like, the power of Christian invokes you, the power of Chris invokes you. Of Chris. So what was it. See, she went to an EO thing EO for those of you that don't know is Entrepreneurs' Organization and it's all motivational speakers.
    A lot of motivational speakers lately if you're watching conference streams. It's amazing how many people are unmotivated, but suddenly motivated to tweet something that they'll never pay attention to or follow. But she was listening to this speaker who was then talking about the intangible assets of an organization and how to value them.
    And, she tweeted it. Then, I of course, with my little bit of accounting background, said, isn't that we just call goodwill on a balance sheet? It's actually an asset; it's something that carries a value. So, six hours later she came back and said 'no, no, no.' And I said 'whatever.' Then she wrote this blog and we put a link in it, so what did you think?
    The statistic that jumped out at me that she tweeted was that in 1985 they said 32 percent of all assets from an SMP500 market value.. 32% were intangible of all assets from everyone that was on the SMP500 Now its 81% so if you look at the way that they treated IP back then terrible way of treating IP.
    and now the way that we treat it today it seems logical that we would need, it goes to your knowledge locker thing, that you were talking talking about Chris. I know, but it. What you know and what your employees know is more valuable than what you have. Well I was working on a documentary service now, talking about the value of having activity stream.
    And besides all the social stuff I said what's nice is your IP is protected 'cause it's in the cloud with your stuff and it's not like it's lost anywhere. So I don't know how I feel about that stat because I did read her post. I think in some ways scares me not as a business person but more as like a human.
    Cause I look at all the money that didn't exist in the markets, that just kind of evaporated when the markets went nuts. Yeah. And when I hear about, you know, what was the set? Eighty five percent of value...? It was 81%. Eighty one percent of corporate value assets today are are intangible.
    That's pretty crazy. It's bad.
    Cooper, you're a business person and smart.
    See, I take a different perspective all together.
    Of course you do, that's why you're on the show. If you agreed with us, we wouldn't have you.
    Assets don't have to be tangible to be valuable, right? I mean you have your greatest asset in your organization is your knowledge.
    Right, I think we're not disagreeing with that. We're agreeing that it's now 80% of the value of a business instead of 30% as it was twenty years ago.
    More of the business is intangible assets.
    Yeah, but i think thats good though. I mean if you look at where you wanna drive an economy at a scale. We want to be a society of people who are knowledged workers, right? I mean, you hate to say it and try to ignore that there's a class war that goes on globally, but there does and there is so if we can be a country full of, you know, high end professional knowledge workers, lawyers, doctors, people who basically set and regulate society versus the ones who actually have to put bolts in little trinkets and things like that then that's of higher value.
    So in every civilization that has these classes of workers, there's always some form of income inequality whether it be CCX whatever is making 90% and this move to this knowledge economy or reputation economy, something I don't talk about purposely in my presentations 'cause I think it would scare a lot of people.
    I mean just topic scares people that you know they have got some type of algorithm scoring them, and then I entered the society of a knowledge locker, but to me the really scary thing about this is in an economy like the one you described where money really isn't the thing that's making people inequal.
    So what is it going to be? In my opinion, it's gonna be access to information. access of information is the foundation of every single democracy on earth. So we're actually heading to a really scary point in time, as far as I'm concerned in humanity.
    Well did the see the windmill thing that Skep posted.
    It's a Ted Talk about a guy who in Africa, Myanmar I think and they're...can't produce enough food and he doesn't have any access to water.
    I thought Myanmar was on the other side of Thailand.
    It's not Myanmar then.
    Okay. I am not the best to geography in any case and to be honest I did not pay that much attention to be getting of it, but.
    We always get that assumption.
    [ xx] between Bangladesh and Thailand.
    Access to information has made you very powerful, Hooper.
    Actually, I had a friend who did volunteer work in Miyamart [sp?]
    You are wearing T-shirt shared with the entire Asian continent on.
    Actually that's what the grapesville.
    He went to. He went to the library and read about a windmill, and he built a windmill, and he's got a line that's as long as the city is of people that want to charge iphones and charge their cell phones on this wind mill. That access to information that he got for a few moments there King of the town.
    Yeah. You're talking about William Kamkwamba, does that sound familiar? William Kamkwamba?
    Like I said, did not pay attention.
    He just looked it up. Watch his eyes and watch what he does. Watching the TED talk right now, you guys keep going on. You could at least like hide your video or something. it's about resource though, right? He has a resource. Right. And what was his value? Was his value the windmill or was it the energy that came out of the windmill.
    His value was the publicity around the damn windmill. Ah, no his personal value's. Now the only people who fear everybody becoming heroes, is heroes. The only people fear everybody becoming a superstar superstars.
    Someone the other day, well, that goes on a bunch of things.
    The only reason we have the dollar value is because there is the Wall Street The Wall Street "The Wall Street?" like "The Internet?" "The Wall Street," yeah. What?! Have you started drinking when you're off the clock? Where is all of this coming from? I'm just saying, if you stop often looked at it from a rational, social standpoint, the dollar has zero value. It's called fiat currency. Look it up right now since you're so quick on the Internet.
    That's exactly correct and its because of the simple fact that we are being gameified and we have been gameified from mostly the Let's just blame the British or the Romans, one or the other. I think it goes back a little further than that but, yeah. Right? and this is exactly -- people say, you know, "What does this have to do with how people react in corporations and other things?" That is exactly the point.
    If you look at any, people who say the word and building their Empire building, that's exactly what they're doing. They're trying to overstate their dependency.
    Power .
    Yeah. And their power. And their value.
    But ultimately, knowledge workers are going to come to a point where you've only-- you've got so much knowledge available to you, you've got so much knowledge, you know, banked that you can trade or I mean, to me access to information is the new currency. But I won't go there. Let's talk about bringing your own device because this is another one of those things.
    I truly believe the reason bring your own device is such a crazy topic right now is because it truly represents again the income inequality in organizations. If I show up with a mapbook retina tomorrow at work, everyone's gonna think, "How much are they paying Chris?" They're not gonna think, "What a nice device." And again, I think, you wouldn't ask a plumber to come in to your house and use your wrench.
    You wouldn't ask a painter to come out of the house andYou wouldn't ask me to come work for you and use your equipment. Awesome. And as a knowledge worker we need to be sensitive to what BYOD actually is. and a lot of it's a threat to their bread and butter. That's a great analogy. Dude, you know who I am.
    But the plumber does come to my house and ask to use the toilet. He doesn't bring his own toilet. can guarantee you, if there's a plumber in your house, he's peeing in a can in his truck. Yeah. Have you ever been...I don't even want to go in to other people's bathrooms, although I always look in the medicine cabinet.
    I don't know what it is. There is something magical about other people's medicine cabinets. Who has medicine cabinets anymore? I do. Really? medicine cabinet. Dude do you know many meds I have? No, I don't. I am sure you have meds. I know you have meds. Hooper just rolled his eyes. That's awesome.
    thats the craziest super thing I've ever seen. Hey so I don't know if you've all seen this thing, I was looking at this earlier, it the vespa some worst cities to work and play.
    For some reason it was on CIO.com.
    I know why it was on CIO.com 'cause CIO.com sucks.
    Oh, it's horrible. It's was in the section, It was really funny. I mean, I would definitely put this in the show notes.
    You won't.
    Man, so they say Australia, they have like a down thumb. It's just a picture of a shark. It's literally, like, you know, something you'd see on Mashable or something. I have no idea why. It's like CIO.com could not go downhill faster.
    One does not simply live in Australia.
    All right. I don't know why CIO won't even be talking about that. Do you have any other news, Beran. I see you've got a few things here before we go because we're getting to the top of the show here.
    My gripe Taleo sucks.
    We haven't done gripe of the week in a long time.
    Oh, we have. Yeah.
    We used to do gripe of the week.
    You know those hiring platforms are just terrible. You know, I haven't applied to a job in a long time because I don't really think that's the best way to get a job, it's better to just talk to people. Man those application tools?
    I tried doing it in a grocery store paying for food, it just doesn't work.
    Is this breaking news now that you're looking for work?
    No, I was just -- yes. Definitely. Every time. All the time. Everyday. Any one who is a consultant is always looking for work. But no, it totally sucks. I can't believe that it still is in business. Bodery streaming? Did you guys check out Bodery streaming at all? No.
    Oh, man, it's better than going to the concert. You don't have to touch any sweaty, dirty people, you don't have to use a Porta-Potty, but you see --
    What are you talking about?
    Bonnaroo. it's a music festival in California.
    Oh, my God, I feel so old. Do you have any idea what he's talking about, Hooper?
    I really don't, no.
    They streamed it live on YouTube, like the entire concert, so every single venue, every single artist on there for free.
    This is fantastic. Absolutely fantastic.
    Ah this is a good one! There's a site... I think it's in the UK. What's their bloody name? I can say that because I went to a UK dealer.
    You suddenly can't think of something and you turn into an English person. What's the bloody name?
    Cogan. And if you use Internet Explorer, they tax everything that you buy on their site an additional seven percent, because you're using Internet Explorer. Fantastic.
    No way, really? Just to make you not use Internet Explorer on the site.
    Exactly, you got a link.
    That's brilliant.
    Download Firefox. Download Chrome and you don't have to pay this tax but people still pay it.
    That is gonna be my smack marketing stragtegy. I tell you right now, IE is killing us. It's terrible.
    Then why is it not supported. Because too many people use it? Too many people use it so we're working with a bunch of recruitment firms right now target market is the hunters. And so they were all like...like we have one client who's IE 7. And they're a national firm. And it's cause their homegrown tracking system uses IE 7.
    And we're just like, 'All right, you know, can can you get Chrome on there? And can you just open two browsers?' Nice. Oh, it's killing this whole week instead of putting out, this is actually part of that article I was talking about earlier with Eric Ries inside of Innovation. You still see these big companies spend 80% of their time keeping the light on us and twenty percent innovating.
    But this is exactly the reason. It's like, you know, we're a small shop start-up. You know, we couldn't be more agile. Yet this whole week we lost putting new features and bringing some great technology to the people because we have to fix IE issues because it can't support the standards that are out there.
    It's just crazy.
    It's a waste of time, it's a waste of money.
    It's junk. That's where Microsoft should be spending their billions of dollars
    Yeah, you think?
    Okay, and then last one, great bring your own device article. I thought it was very well stated. "Technology in itself is not And technology exists to augment and amplify human potential, and I think it's Northwestern University that's actually to give the talk on it? But they use a hundred percent BYOD.
    Yeah, it's like I just said, but that's true of all of humankind's tools. They have always been just to amplify their ability. A spear is just an easier way to kill a deer, because killing deer with your bare hands, especially if it's a big deer. Oh, dear. It's a sport. Do you have any news? We've talked about most of my news, but I got a graph of the week I would like to share.
    Oh, go ahead. This isn't a gripe that I really experience anymore. Now is the time to bring it up. Dotted line reporting. What does that mean? Dotted line reporting. You know, like, "Oh, this person is in IT, but they don't really report directly from me. They work for the local manager. They're a dotted line to me.
    Why are they a dotted line? Be no line. Yeah. Thank you, Barron. I met a major client right now where we have to decide assignment groups for an ITSM initiative. It is like pulling teeth. I am in hell over it. and you know, we've come to the point now where it's just like are you an incident group?
    Change group? Request group? Awesome. Fantastic. groups, let's just go with that. Because their organizational structure is so poor, and it changes so often like why do you not understand your business Well enough to organize yourself. They're trying to put themselves functionally and kind of process titles.
    It kills me, we've got process. title. And we can give process groups no problem, but they fight it to death. Yeah, it blows my mind, you know, where You see these decisions people make from an org-chart standpoint, and I just say to myself, who actually looked at this and said, oh, that's a good idea; let's do that.
    I think a large amount of this company's specific problems is that there's so much upper that like most people are middle heavy right? Middle management is like this. This company is top heavy instead of middle heavy. It's like directors, VPs, Senior VPs. These are the only people doing work there.
    It's gotta be either a bank or an insurance company.
    No comment. No comment.
    So somebody check Matt Beran on Foursquare.
    I don't check-in anywhere. I don't. I stopped using Foursquare.
    So, a client I used to work at -- they actually had someone who was the "problem manager," and I know there's a lot of people in that role.
    My boss is the problem manager.
    Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know a lot of problem managers. But the reality, it's like why do people not get the idea of a role? You know, did they never play cops and robbers as a kid?
    Put on a couple extra pounds. I mean, you get rolls for days. I don't know, the whole thing just seems silly to me. Every time my partner works for a very large financial organization. And he's in development. Been there for twenty years. And it's funny because he'll come home, he'll be on call, he'll get calls about production blows up and I'll listen in.
    Before he even will help someone, did you create a ticket? So he's a developer, he won't even talk to them until I created the ticket. But, they say 'yes', he then hangs up the phone, remote dials in to make sure the ticket's there and then starts to help. Finally! You know, I said to him the other week.
    I go, I just want you to know that you're the reason people hate IT. He goes, well why do you even care? and I said, do you know what I do for a living, and he goes, seriously so we sat down after 17 years of being together and we talked about what we each did and it It turns out I am living with the enemy!
    That is awesome.
    It's like Stockholm Syndrome, I just don't know what to do. Do I kiss him do I get him fired? i just don't know.
    You should just set to your bi-line: Living with the enemy.
    Living with the enemy. Tech fluffer. Alright and then I guess the last thing for me, I've got an announcement. I hope we don't have too many people streaming so word doesn't get out too fast.
    But, you're leaving service now.
    Please, I've been.
    He needs to make money.
    Yeah, come on. No, so, I've had an idea for some time and we've been very successful with these Google Hangouts. And I've kind of put some things into motion that I'll be announcing next week after the STI conference, officially. But I've secured one time.and I'm working on the other two. But coming December 1st, we will actually be streaming a 'un-conference' for IT Service Management Professionals starting in Auckland, New Zealand going time zone by time zone, following the sun over a Google hangout continuously for 24 hours with the support of Google themselves.
    Awesome. That's fantastic. How are you going to stay awake? I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. I'm doing it. That needs to be on the soundboard. No, no no. You'll have all the details next week. but there are 24 available slots. We're looking for 8 people in the Oceania-
    It's like and ITS-amathon.
    Yep, we're looking for 8 people in Oceania, 8 people in Europe, 8 people in North America to handle 24 hours of programming. We'll be looking for 48 people altogether so each person has a back up every hour on the hour following the sun we will start and bring out a new speaker all streamed live. No registration and available afterwards on YouTube Can I man the phone banks?
    This is not a telethon. I just want to be sitting in the back. And then we can only get this release approved if you call now your next speaker is waiting in the wings and we need one more pledge. You get this stuffed Hooper doll at the 250 dollar level. You get this Matt Barron bottle of Ritalin at the $500 level.
    Ritalin's not that expensive. A bouncy ball. Bouncy ball. So yeah, I'm very excited Hopefully, we can get the things worked out with the folk server in the UK next week. But, it just dawned on me, I've been working on it for a while and it finally came to ahead last week because there were folks in South Africa tweeting and conversing with the folks having a conference in New Zealand.
    And I said to myself, Can we devote Can we just dissolve this whole chapter mentality and just have a conference, a global conference? And someone sent me an email said, 'Well, we can't do that because you can't fly everybody everywhere.' And I'm, like, 'No, we'll just do one.' Well, then you can't do that, because you know, time zone.' I'm like, 'OK, we'll just keep it going.' So I made some contacts and got a hold of someone at Google and contacted someone over in Australia, and looks like we are good to go for December 1st.
    So watch this space if you want to be a speaker. We're looking for, you know, creme de la creme, top of the top. And the good thing about being or submitting to be a speaker when we do go live, is the speaking slots will be crowdsourced by Listly. So the top 24 people who get voted up on Listly get the spots.
    Okay. So you know you just violated every rule of a un-conference, right?
    How so? You're not supposed to determine the topics before you get to the conference. The whole thing is supposed to happen by the people present and, yeah.
    And obviously that would be the best scenario, but we're dealing with a very volatile technology. Nothing's ever been streamed continuously via a Google hangout 24 hours. So we're actually breaking a world record but I was gonna wait to announce that 'til next week.
    Thanks for ruining it, Hooper.
    Well you know what, why don't we just stay on right now. I'm gonna need a few more of these.
    Oh man. And I'm two hours ahead of you.
    You guys are nuts.
    Actually, we just broke a world record. We actually talked about ITSM for almost one solid hour.\
    It took 91 episodes. I know women who go through labor quicker than it took us to get to ITSM topics. You notice, it's so hard though, when, it was easier for me to do this when I wasn't consulting but after spending all week automating an HR onboarding process. The last thing I want to do right now is talk about ITSM.
    You mean when you weren't working before it was easier to talk about work?
    Yeah, well Yes, thanks to wife, I actually do work at Smack, even though I just don't get paid is the difference.
    Money's overrated. I think that's good, I think we've got all of our topics. For those of you who've been watching, or been a part of the show for a long time, we switched from Google Docs to Evernote, so now we just share an Evernote folder, and as we see things, we email it into the Evernote folder and share it with each other.
    With that, we will catch everyone in two weeks, Episode 92, and let's try to get Mr. Kim on. I know we've got a commitment from Hank Marquis.
    Gene's in. Actually I talked to him, he's in. He had his deadline for his book this week so he was a no go for this week, but definitely looking forward to being on the show with us.
    All right, we'll get Gene Kim on.
    I want to give a shout-out to somebody else, too, if I could.
    Okay, it's prom season, go ahead.
    All right, thank you. If it's all right.
    No, it's your show.
    Okay. Well, I'll share it with you. I just want to make sure you're okay with it.
    Hold on, hold on Yeah. Right OK. We didn't have an ITSMF for New England there was a no show from one of the speakers. Robert Straud didn't show up. I'm not exactly sure what the details were.
    He was busy cross-posting his latest video to 18 sources.
    Cross-posting and his time traveling Stargate thing was broken. When I think of something.
    So Carlos Casanova who we've talked about but yet to have on the show.
    Carlos Casanova, he's been on the show.
    Well, maybe he hasn't.
    It was good to see, it gave me a lot of respect for Carlos and also gave me a lot of respect for the local folks her in the ITSM group in New England even though I'm not a member anymore. I have a lot of respect for them and for what they continue to do. I know there is a lot of other folks in their chapters in their local chapters and people who listen to this show.
    are dedicating a lot of their own personal time to that. And so I just wanted to say thank you. You know, thank you to all of you if you're volunteering and for all the work that everybody does to kind of keep this stuff alive it takes a lot. And you know, when you see it in action, it really is appreciated.
    Because it's just so easy to go to a conference and sit back and do nothing. And so thank you from the bottom of my heart.
    Thank you, Matt Hooper that was beautiful. God I can see Carlos just loving that. He is a good dude. He is a nice guy Robby, give him a ring and see if he wants to come on without Gene Kim at the same time. They probably won't wanna do the Hangout, which will be sad. So, yeah, so thank you, Carlos.
    Yeah, there are a lot of volunteers. I just resigned from the ITSMF Podcast, the USA podcast. So, they actually got Edie Vedell from HDI now in doing that. So, volunteering is tough work. I mean that takes a lot of.
    I know spent hours for preparing for this show.
    Dude, Blondie here shows up in a t-shirt with a beer. Put on a sport coat then suddenly becomes Alright, this has been ITSM Weekly, the Podcast episode 91 for the week ending June 28th. We'll see you all next week. Thanks.
    Bye everybody.
    This was ITSM Weekly, thank you for listening. For more information about this podcast and ITSM news, go to ITSMWeekly.com.
    ITSM Weekly, the podcast bringing you news, insight, analysis, and information from the world of IT service management. Your hosts, Matthew Hooper, Chris Anthony, and Matt Baron. IT service managment weekly, the podcast starts now. Welcome to ITSM Weekly the podcast, episode 91 for the week ending, we'll make it June 20th, because we're always a little bit in the future.
    Something like that. How are you guys doing?
    I'm Chris Hansen with Dateline NBC.
    Those are the 5 words I never want to hear.
    Past 5 days have flown by for a clean June 20th.
    Yes, well said.
    We're going to go ahead and record today we have a very special guest on. That special guest is my invisible friend. No. Let's get going right with some news Darren, do you have anything for us?
    Tons. We should mention Top of the World premier. Another podcast. You can listen to Aleruses' real voice, if you so choose. I thought Debilling did a pretty good job owning that. We'll see where that goes. It's kind of fun to listen to the Swedish accent or the Norwegian accent because I get a lot that around here in Minnesota.
    Yes, I thought it was a very good show. I thought Ross did a nice music is custom for ITSM Weekly Top of the World edition. And somebody even made fun saying it reminded them of that old song "I'm on top of the world looking down on creation." Oh well.
    Yeah, it was a good show. I do not know Hooper, you haven't had a chance to listen to it. You're still recovering from the drama that was, I don't know, the situation with math challenge.
    In your new office that's kind of nice.
    I'm in my new office, yes.
    So, tell us a little bit about this office you're in now.
    It's in Kabul, that's why in a tent.
    You're in Kabul.
    No, my new office is my back yard. Beautiful here.
    That's nice.
    What a beautiful day it is. As a kid did you ever camp in the back. Oh, wow. That was really nice. Maybe we should do a podcast completely outside once.
    We should.
    I'm down. Yeah. I'll go out right now.
    Yeah, we used to do that as kids I grew up more in the city. So camping for me wasn't as much of an experience as it would be for my kids camping in this backyard.
    Every time I camped as a kid, it always turned out awkward for everyone. Yeah. I'm sure. Every time I've podcasted as an adult, it turned out awkward for everyone.
    That's right. I would always hear, ...to wrestle you so freakin' bad. I want to wrestle you so freakin' bad.
    It was just one of those things as a child it just never worked out well for anyone.
    Yes. It's kind of like teaching ITIL.
    Speaking of teaching ITIL, did you see [Hay Marquois] is looking for ITIL trainers?
    No, I didn't. I missed that. Where is, where did he land right now? he's back at global knowledge we talked about it last week, but I wouldn't want you to pay attention while you're recording. Not while you're recording, before and only before. Yeah, what's funny if you read that tweet in England, it means he's looking for altoid sneakers, which is awkward for everyone as well.
    Yeah, trainers. What do they call them in the UK, teachers?
    No, they call sneakers trainers I thought. Or maybe they call sweatpants trainers.
    I would think that they'd call trainers sneakers.
    Terrible. OK, so other news: Evernote to release activity stream today.
    I saw that, but it looked like it was just for windows.
    Oh, really I did not see if it does. 'Cause it's not on mine. I saw you tweet that you were excited about it.
    I thought, It's just on the Windows client. What are you, backsliding?
    Another reason that I have to install VM again. Or another reason just to actually pay attention to what you actually click on and read.
    Come on, Chris. Don't give me that. If it's on PC, it's coming on Mac. I think it's a great idea. I think everything should have an activity and if you disagree with me, I know you're lying.
    Dude, I'm still overwhelmed with what you like something from Miami Vice Circa '91. We got like Crockett and Tubbs.
    Is that truly a sports jacket, I should have put a sports jacket on.
    If I'd got the memo I would have. You've got a little bit of man. If actually had the time to read the show notes before we recorded I would have.
    Yeah. I won't give you a hard time, I know you're still recovering. So I guess other pseudo-industry news, so Facebook wanted to become relevant, so they spent a billion dollars on Instagram. Microsoft wants to be relevant, so they spend a billion dollars on Yammer.
    Whoa . I hope it gets more enterprises using Yammer, because it's a part that is infused in a lot of enterprises.
    You know it would be funny. I wish that Microsoft would take that billion dollars and actually fix their whole life platform which was already a social network, and they could have actually used it to integrate better with Groove, right? So maybe if they just stopped blowing money on other companies and just fixed their own stuff, that would be a little helpful.
    I remember Groove. I really liked Groove.
    Groove's great.
    It was a way that I could have document on my machine but it was also on your machine, It was like Drop Box before Drop Box.
    That's right, yeah.
    Groove's a phenomenal technology. Microsoft has picked up so much phenomenal technology and they just destroy it.
    It sounds familiar!
    Talking about BMC.
    So I thought it was really interesting I got an email from ITSMF Fusion. I think you wanna get forward in, and actually we could, to examine why actually that's Edgar Allan Poe. No different. But to figure out why they changed their hashtag from Fusion 12 to SM Fusion or whatever that name it is. But the thing I found most interesting about the ITSMF Fusion, if you're going to that event, here in North America down at the Gaylord Texan, again two words you never together.
    The platinum sponsor, there's only one platinum sponsor for ITSMF Fusion Guess what mega company is the platinum sponsor? I may know who it is. Who is it? Merryville Technologies. So Merryville Technologies Technology is the platinum sponsor. Guess who the next level down, gold sponsors. Service Now.
    Isn't IBM one of them? Yep. Serena Software? Nope. will kill this game. Skull sponsors Axios, IBM, and Main Engine, Axios by the way just released...
    I said IBM
    Yes, I know you did. What?
    He said yes to that. there, you happy? Remember, I'm another generation. I need to be affirmed every 30 seconds. That's what Mrs. Barron says. And then some response was you've got no consulting portal, our friend Mainville, people start x-ing Bronze sponsors, service now, what i thought was real interesting thing about that was all the, you know, companies you considered bigger have settled down to the bottom, and then, you know, the mix is there, which kind of makes me wonder We see a lot of the big players missing from shows CA?
    I don't even think CA's on the list. No they're not. Maybe companies just get so big that they don't they don't need that type of exposure any more at these conferences. Why do you think this looks so backward to me? Well, I know IBM pulled out a few years ago of the show because they had their owned show going on at the same time.
    Pulse Yeah, Pulse. What was that, eight, nine, ten? They all blur together, I can't remember.
    Did you say Vicki I said they all blend in together. Who's Vicki Vale? Yeah, so check that out I thought that was prett

    # vimeo.com/44648127 Uploaded
  3. Show Notes with Links Here:

    Infinite monkey theorem or why dating woman has ITIL written all over it.

    What happens when a CIO, a Service Desk Manager and an Industry Junkie Chat Weekly?!

    Your Hosts: Chris Dancy, Matthew Hooper and Matt Beran (twitter #ITSMWP)

    Submit Questions: Anonymously or Email or Call In: (765) 236-6383 or Twitter Questions/Comments #ITSMWP

    Episode 90 Topics:

    Submit Questions: Anonymously or Email or Call In: (765) 236-6383 or Twitter Questions/Comments #ITSMWP

    Episode 90 Topics:

    **News Gator: Updates from Tech**

    ITSM Weekly Podcast Stats Published
    Marcus Nelson, Salesforce / UserVoice
    ITSM Social Media Mavens, who are not very savvy….hmmm who could it be?
    Robert Stroud and CA
    Screenshot, how to look silly on social media
    Nimsoft , Managing the Business of IT by Robert Stroud
    ServiceNow Knowledge12 conference Wrap Up
    ITSM Weekly Antipodean review of Knowledge12
    ITSM Top of the World Podcast
    Hank Marquis
    Chris Dancy and His Dead Mother, The Creepy ITSM Connection
    Pink Forum
    HDI Connect
    Practitioner Radio, Number 2 & 3 Podcast Popularity
    How many ITSM internet groups do we need?
    After Facebook, Doc Searls
    Verge Guy, gives up Facebook
    New ITIL Software Assessment Criteria Released (Software Scheme)
    GET SMAK – Startup Life, Somewhere between Suicide and Instagram
    “Technical accomplishments but customer failures.”
    “How can you tell if you are impacted? – You wake up with a backache.”
    Migrations of Birds and Norwegians
    Infinite Monkey Theorem
    HP lays off 27K people
    Innovation – Displacement vs Disruption
    What will happen with Children because of the ADHD culture
    Axios Assyst 10, now Social ?
    Klout, Let’s go to Church, You people have LOST your minds.
    Google turning off computers, if infected with DNS Changer
    DNS Checker Site, One Page, One Click Done.
    Facebook makes a phone and demands your password
    Teachers and Students on Facebook and friends.
    Age of the Password, the Google Information Security Presetnation
    Foster parents vs Adoption
    Data centers of the Future are biotech in nature
    Dyson Airblade is the prototype for transfer of data in the future
    Google Goggles video released, how does this CHANGE software, events and interactions.
    Meet the urban Datasexual
    Pill to make you forget
    Klout Score effected the day you arrive at a conference





    ITSM weekly. The podcast bringing you news, insight, analysis, and information from the world of IT service. Management. Your hosts Matthew Hooper, Chris Dancy and Matt Beran. IT Service Management Weekly, the podcast starts now. Welcome to a Hi TSI weekly, the pod cast episode ninty. Nine zero old women don't make it this long.

    For the week ending June eighth two thousand Well we have no guests this week because we have guesting. We have been doing a lot guests we just thought we would catch up with the three of us because people seem to like that sort of thing or they don't. I don't know. Guys? Yeah. I don't know if they like it.

    Do they like it? I hope they did. Well, I mean if you look at the stats, I mean did you notice we published the pod casting stats recently? Oh yeah.

    Yeah, I was pouring through the analysis.


    I didn't look at it.

    Dude, Dude, Hooper, you're big in Albania.

    That 's awesome.

    They also have trouble with the word horrriiibbble.

    I think our stats were like slowly declining, and then they just went up a little.

    Yeah, so, dude, I totally picked up when you dig on me while you were at - how do you say it, s t i t s?

    Why did I dig on you, what did I say?

    You were saying hoorrribbblle.

    Somebody's got to replace you when you're not here.

    Alright so working on getting Marcus Nelson from Salesforce on. He reached out to us after we recorded our last show. He's a founder of UserVoice, but now and a Salesforce and it looks like he wants to. We're just trying to get schedules coordinated.

    Oh, very cool.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gonna be good. There's no NewsGator 'cause it's all news. So, Ralph, can we get some Gators? Can we get anything? You know, I guess I could always use the soundboard if we're live and play that kind of stuff. But then nobody would hear it, would they?

    But you'd have to crank up your I'm not going to do that. The only time I'm cranking with speakers, okay. So, News Gator. Release the News Gator poodle. We should release the poodles and then the gators. Can we have some news gators eat poodles? There you go. Delicious. Thank you, Ross. See what's weird is that most people think that Ross Magic happens real time and its all post, like much of service management is all post production.

    That's right. So we got lots of news, we got lots of news lot of conversations. Are either one of you ready this week? Oh yeah, I actually prepared. Isn't that weird? Okay, why don't you go; what kind of news you got for us? I'm not saying that it's going to be quality, I'm not promising anything I'm not your wife and I know this already.

    Setting your expectations low. So, first on my list, Robert Stroud, is first on my list and he's actually on the naughty list of any lists. After I got three emails from Google Plus content from Him and then three Facebook posts about the same stuff from him. He has become blocked on both platforms unfortunately.

    And what's really strange is I really like Robert Stroud. He's really smart. But if you've got content like that, you need to be careful how you're distributing it.

    So let me get this straight. Someone you know is saturating your information channels with the exact same message.

    I don't wanna answer that question 'cause I know what the follow up response is.

    There's no follow up response. I'm just asking the question. So I guess for those people out there who don't know Robert Stroud, Robert Stroud is a an employee over at CA. Our friends at CA - love the CA by the way.

    Should we make this episode sponsored by them?


    And Robert Stroud specifically.

    Robert is also, if you don't follow him on Twitter, he's Robert E Stroud I think on Twitter and responsible in large part for the, I guess, promotion of COBIT 'cause you don't see anything coming out of ISACA itself.

    Yeah. I think it was His claim to fame for a long time was one of the few members of both the ITSM board and the COBIN board. Right? Wasn't he on both?

    Well I was practicing with Christian Wicken for about a week. Yeah, it didn't fix either. So, do you have any visual proof of this, man? I mean, do you have anything that would actually point out this type of behavior?

    Yeah, I'll pull it up here on the screen share. With the power of the internet and Google Hangout.

    So with the power of the internet you can actually bring up an example of this.


    'Cause I'm also ready for an example.

    Oh yeah, you take screen shots and stuff like that. See, I'm sort of a set it and forget it kind of guy, right?

    Should I screen share mine?


    All right, I'll screen share mine. Screen share.

    It 's gonna take a little while to pull up. Select the window you want to show. Show that selected window. So as you can see here.

    Oh, I sent you that. Nice.

    As you could see here, we've got Robert Stroud on Facebook. And the things that are really interesting is like He posted to Facebook so he's got you created it but then he liked himself.

    Right and then its a video of himself, yeah.

    This is for cocktail re-calculus.

    That's the word of the day, re-calculus.

    Is was a bit much.

    So is this on Facebook?

    It was.

    I'm not on Facebook.

    That one's on Facebook.

    I can show you what I've got.

    No, no no, this is not the burn and of course it's the burn and torture episode.

    And the thing is it's actually good content, like the first one I actually read it. I don't know if this is a Google plus thing but sometimes when you share things on Google Plus it says Oh do you want to email these people? People do. I'm like, if anyone says yes to that, that's probably bad. They should remove that option.

    They should remove that option.

    Now, that's their viral effect, right That's how they get more people on Google plus.


    Oh Yeah.

    That's lame. I agree. It is.

    I think your spot on Barron and we obviously do this out of love for Robert. Right? to help him understand what he's doing to those who actually read his content, like us.

    I'd hate to be your kid and in trouble.

    I G Plus one of his articles. I read it. It was the one was a blog on one of the Nimsoft blogs about Service Portfolio, and I thought the article was great but I don't think it applied to everybody, and I got a response back from John Custy who said, "No. I think your wrong man." I think Service Portfolio is more important for a small business than you know, the governance part of measuring or whatever it was that I had said but I think that's good.

    I love when people disagree with me because it makes me stop and think, did I read something differently or am I not thinking this through correctly? And occasionally I'll take away something of value.


    The best ways to grow and learn is to surround yourself with people who are growing and learning.

    That's right.

    So, other news the Service Now conference wrapped up last week.

    Some good Tweets came out of that.

    Yeah. A lot of big announcements came out high. Look, I've got things beeping and tweeting. you live in a censor world. I do live in a world of censors. So hybrid, high availability, consulting a bunch of other stuff things I thought were interesting, because actually Karen, down on "The Antipodean," that little show from down under.

    And Hooper, you weren't here. We may have to go off task. they recorded the first top of the world episode for Finland, Sweden, and the Nordics today so there is to be a fourth entry into the the fray here. But Karen Ferris did an amazing job of talking about the conference. You know, I had to work it, alright?

    That's always a lot different because when you're working a conference you don't have Time to enjoy anything. You know because at first you're keeping customers and everyone happy and moving and then you're also presenting, which was difficult. So I don't know. Seemed like a good conference to me.

    There seems to be a little of backlash on the Twitter right now, don't know what's going on with that but it is what it is.

    Yeah, one of the things that they really got right was having For people who don't share on Twitter and don't share on Facebook they use a social feed that anyone who signed up for the conference is automatically signed up for. So people would go into a social session or even a non-social session and you could be in like a Facebook style feed of that session.

    So if someone had questions, they could post it in there. You didn't have to interrupt the entire room.


    People could just ask questions directly. If someone had content they needed to deliver.

    So in that they enabled the back channel for the conference. They actually, not only did they embrace it, they enabled it.

    Yeah. And then one of the big announcements, bigger than the high availability in my point of view is social streams for ITSM products. So in-line social streams for incidents, problems, CI. So you want to see the life of a CI you go check out its Facebook page. Or you check out the podcast from three years ago.

    Exactly. What a concept. So Hank Marquis, are you guys familiar with this Hank Marquis guy?

    Oh, yeah. He's got all the ITIL things on his collar at all the conferences.

    Used to work for Global Knowledge, and then he went to where, was it Microsoft or somebody? He was at Global Knowledge and then he worked for Lowe's Home Improvement which ironically enough I met someone once from Lowe's right after my mother died and this person had the exact same name as my mother, look at that!

    Priscilla Dancy. Ain't that creepy? This is crazy.

    Yeah, full of crazy through there. So yeah, went to Lowe's. Did a bunch of work for them. And then, came back, he's back at Global Knowledge now. So, yeah, he's back in the picture. I just wanted to check with you guys, are you following his updates? He seems to be back with a vengeance. Almost at penicillin levels of communication.

    No, I haven't seen the streams.

    I'd like to have him on the show. I think he's very interesting. Very, very progressive thinker and as Matt said he does have more pins than anyone Moving on. Have any of you guys noticed that Pink Elephant now has joined HDI, LinkedIn and back to ITSM, and all the other ones many sorted ways to communicate.

    And there's now something called the pink form. No, not pink curtains, the pink form. Have you guys seen this?


    This on Facebook?

    No. Wow. Hold on. I have to get either Nietzsche or a Heigel puppet out for that one. No, this is a user forum! The pink elephant sponsors. Actually it isn't Heigel, so I don't know. No, so it's, I'll put a link on this. So, basically you can go and talk about real service management questions. Just for you guys, and this kind of goes with a question that I saw earlier today.

    How many conversation forms do we need on the internet for this little topic?

    One. The problem is that we'd all have to agree upon it. No ones going to agree upon it and the pink elephant guys cant be on the HD iphone's asking questions and the HDi guys can't be on the pink phones answering questions.

    Well that's three. All of those guys are on all of those forums, I mean, Troy, practitioner radio. By the way if you looked at the stats, the number two episode, numbers two Two and three were Troy.


    Number one being Gerard Green but.

    Yeah that was good. Once you got on black you don't go back. But they're all, I mean, Troy's on and David Ratcliff was on. So yeah, it's not like they're not on these things or other places. So I guess, if you want to check it out I'll put a link in the show notes.

    There's lots of action happening everywhere.

    It depends on how the job configured though. Some forms are excellent and they do a good job but They're too noisy. It's too impossible to find any kind of topics.

    LinkedIn versus Back tie TSM?

    Yeah, and that's the problem with unstructured user kind of your forms its a great concept. I know Doc Searls is gonna jump out of Harvard and come choke me for saying this but if you leave it to the crowds sometimes to create the voice. You know, they aren't always going to get it right. So you've got to give them a little guidance.

    You've got to give them a little structure and then I think the forms take better shape. Did you see that Doc Searls article called "After Facebook"?

    No, I missed that. Pretty amazing article talking about, what are we gonna do post-Facebook, how are we gonna acting and those sorts of things. Put a link in the show notes. But anytime he posts anything it's pretty amazing.

    It's like that Virg guy who gave up the Internet for a year. I love those I just love them.

    I'm watching him. You know I'm watching him. Very, very interesting, that guy. And then last, I think it was May 8th VPM publisher posted that the new ITIL software assessment criteria scheme for software tool venders has been released. So now that there's a new the quadrant of course there is going to be new Itel software scheme assessment.

    Is this like another version of pink verify? Oh, sometimes I wish I could summons David Ratcliff. David Ratclifff! exactly that. I don't think they would call it that. But yeah. So basically you've got a set of criteria. They call it the swirl. So your software can get either a gold, bronze or silver squirrel, I think it might be silver.

    I know the lowest criteria is someone just has to mention you out loud and you get that squirrel. Interesting enough. Which made me Tweet. I thought I'd share this Tweet with you every time I see ITIL software screen I have to realize that those three words are from 1998, 1963, and 1550 ITIL Software scheme.

    Man, you really did prepare today, Chris. Holy cow. Looking up words and their origins. That was the tweet from two weeks ago. I just saved it. That's not preparation.

    Oh. Did you see the article about everyone's ADHD?

    Yes, and I thought it Particularly, yeah, it rang true for me. And it's actually there's a link in it...or embedded YouTube video to a mindfulness the eye doctor.

    Yeah I like Cabit Zen Cabit Zen.

    And fantastic. One of my favorite quotes was in science it's not what you know it's what you're willing to know you don't know that matters. There's a paradox around that. It's one of these knowledge paradoxes. Hooper, you've got kids, what what do you think of this ADHD? I think that everybody does have it, a little bit of it.

    People express it in different ways. I don't know, I think a lot of it is just becomes that your senses I think I'm overloaded. I know when my son would watch too many movies or play too many video games he'd get more antsy. But if I told him to go for a run or you know go hit the gym he was he was fine.

    See my dad told me to go hit the gym. I just don't know how history would have been forked by that one decision. Seriously. There would have been a rupture in the time-space continuum, had my father 30 years ago said, hit the gym. It would have been a hate crime.

    It kind of goes back to the verge guy. The last article he had was about we know a lot of things that completely worthless because it's so easily found. A friend of his asked him you know did Jimmy Hendricks cover to this Eric Clapton song? And immediately they googled it and knew it. He left the room because not allowed to be in the room while they're Googling things.

    That's funny, that's really funny. We'll put a link to his blog, well not his blog, but someone else's, does the blog for him. Because I watched him hour he was on the internet, he was playing games live like we are now. Actually, literally playing games. Hooper, you're kind of quiet kind of get you involved, I don't know how to do it.

    I'll have to call Mrs. Hooper.

    I heard bad news: we didn't make it into the mass challenge program this year. So it's tough news. I just found out before I got on the show. Yeah.

    Oh, that's why you were late.

    That was why I was late. Yeah. Just go dry my eyes.


    Yeah . That's start-up life. Did you guys read my blog?

    Who do I make it out to?

    Do you guys have a blog? I need a tool to help me figure out when you post something.

    Yeah. Well, this wasn't on my blog. This actually was picked up by Boston. And it was a blog I wrote, "Start-Up Life: Somewhere Between Suicide and Instagram."

    Yeah. You know, it's a constant roller coaster ride.

    So what does this mean? Does this mean anything or is it just another day?

    Yeah, it's a hit for our PR marketing. It's a hit for our mentorship that we need. It's always good to have more people helping you make the right connections in the start-up scene. But at the end of the day it's customers and, you know, delivering that's gonna make us successful. So we need to just...I think it'd actually be good for us.

    I think it's a good kick in the pants for us to kind of rethink where we are from our product strategy and really kind of drive our delivery more customer-centric. You know you do your best job that you can to try I like to get the customer input. But I just continue to see the team go off on these tangents of building, you know, technical accomplishments but complete customer failures.

    Whoo! that's a quote, that's a Tweet. That's pretty wild. I don't know you kind of bummed me out now, I don't know if I can finish the show. Of course I can! Well so here's the good news right? That yeah, tell me something. Gmail went down this morning for 400,000 users, and it's once again why people need to reconsider their cloud strategy.

    Now, what does "reconsider your cloud strategy" mean? We're Where are your points of data? right? so at least for me I wasn't impacted. I wouldn't even of known if I was impacted. I am because I wake up with a back ache. You know, your mail is pretty critical for most people, right? So, I mean, you got to think about where is it stored, how's it.

    stored, where is it kept so this is good news for companies like Backupify, which backs up their GMail and it's actually good news for us because we. Were an overlay to G mail we make your Email available even if G mail goes down or Facebook goes down you can still access those messages so its good you know this kind of thing continues to help show that the proliferation.

    of information and the fragments and the channels are gonna cause people to be innovative about the tools they develop you are so smart it's good for our space and I think it's good i'm not saying it's good that. well I know but it drives me crazy we people say, oh a cloud service failed you need to be ready for doom and gloom i think I put it on Facebook the other day you know the only people who care.

    about the Mayan calender calender makers, The Mayans don't give it a second thought that's right like come on alright guys i was racked because you know i was riddled with. in power. No, that probably wasn't the best thing to say online.

    I didn't mean to laugh, I'm sorry.

    Shut up! So I was thinking about Big Data the other day 'cause I found to really great videos. One was migrations of birds and the other one was migrations of Norwegians. These two things don't have anything in common other than migration. But, the one thing I thought was that old saying. Did you ever hear that saying about, you know, if a million monkeys type one of them will create Shakespeare?


    So I found, through the power of the internet, that's actually something called infinite monkey theorem. Have you heard of this infinite monkey theorem?

    From you, when you tweeted it. I had to look it up.

    Oh really? You actually pay attention to my Tweets?

    Oh yeah. I only follow 70 people, it's really easy.

    Let 's not get into that. HP laid off 27,000 people.

    Yeah, I saw that.

    Oh, I didn't see that.

    Well, I tweeted it.

    So, Beran.

    Well, I don't follow Hooper anymore. That way he just found out is I don't follow Woodward.

    Yeah, no one beats your tweets, Hooper. Yeah, I stopped following you once I knew that there was a PHP developer in Boston.

    I finally turned that off. yeah we know. Just in time for everyone not to realize. So HP Matt, since you're in the business it's kind of been there Yeah.

    They laid off 27,000 people in a major restructuring. Hooper, one of the reasons I think it's Meg Whitman there. Is that Meg?

    Mmhm. Hoop?

    Is that who runs that place? Is she the new CEO? I thought it was Meg Whitman maybe no. We've got the power of the internet at our hands and we're not looking it up. Oh well One of the reasons they're citing is they need to focus on innovation, which I think is just crazy because you're gonna lay off thirty thousand people to focus on innovation.

    That's the most innovative thing you could do is to actually talk to those 30,000 people.

    Yeah, and harvest it, make it meaningful.

    So is idea that they will be more flexible, right?

    They want to take that money, those salaries.


    And focus them on a very small team of probably This is not the article. Low paid code hackers, you know seeing whats next.

    But isn't that Hooper's problem?

    Again, you know causality, you know. We could link all of this together. But, what's really going on here and why don't people realize that HP, Rim, Nokia to some extent, Motorola, you know all of these - Google to a large extent, all these companies are really having trouble staying relevant. And like what was the name of the article you just wrote there, Hooper?

    Instagram and suicide, right?


    What's left?

    But they're not risk takers. People throw this word innovation around all the time but they really don't understand what it means.

    What does innovation mean, Hooper?

    There's two aspects in my opinion of innovation, right? There's displacement and there's disruption. And displacement allows you to do something better, right? You're taking something that was done before and now you're increasing its capabilities. So, social media's been around forever, right? Who didn't have AOL?

    There was social media all over AOL, but Facebook made it better because it collaborated in a that made it more integrated with your close knit friends and things like that, with video and pictures and all that kind of stuff. So there's an aspect of what I would call its been innovation. Disruptive innovation is when there is something that doesn't exist and you create the opportunity to have it.

    The opportunity?

    Yeah...like cell phones were disruptive, not only the fact that you could talk to somebody while you're out and about, but now you have instant access to all this Internet data and everything else out and about.

    A child today has more access to information than George Bush did on 9/11.

    Yeah, so, you know, I was listening to the radio program over the weekend. I never call into radio programs I really felt like calling into this one because they were talking about how this next generation is so stupid because they cant communicate. I said it's not that they're stupid That's exactly the point.

    They have more information than any generation probably combined. But the problem is they don't have wisdom, right? So there's plenty of data, plenty information. They don't have the structure on how to acquire that knowledge, how to have the right set of prejudices and judgments and, you know.

    So what will happen?

    Well I think you're going to continue to see two groups of people become extremes. There's people where everything is so politically correct, and then the outside extreme where people are so into their own sub-cultures that they don't how to integrate with other people, you know, with the more general masses.

    Uh, I was specific...I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I was specifically asking what's going to happen with the children? You cited that there is this lack of skill for them to create.

    Yeah I think that's what is going to happen. I think you're going to see two types of types of children grow up.

    So you don't think that there is an evolutionary model for these children to actually adapt and adopt.to create wisdom from ways that we just aren't used to, something we can't figure out yet?

    Oh, I'm sure there is.

    Yeah. Just wanted to bring a little hope to your glimmer of darkness. So just like, Hooper's like, you know, "All children are" you know, "Go to the gym and listen to your own music!" All right. Axious, I don't know if you guys saw this, but Axious has come out with Assist Ten and one of the big features is it's now social.

    should rewrite it.

    What does that mean, it's now social? Do you know how hard it is to get industry news? This is crippling! my God! You're all going to laugh at you.

    I feel like a scene from Cary! Seriously industry new... It's like impossible.


    The fact we don't have news should be news should be news.

    All right.

    So does that mean that the ITEL software compliance thing that you mentioned earlier it has a component for social because is that something that is required now for all these service desks? Well its in the magic quadrant I now because, you know I'm never one to fib. I did not read the new compliance.

    Me neither. We could have Richard Faro on the show, but he's too busy collecting royalty. oooh, did I say that out loud? Yes. I just got an email saying, Dear King of Klout. Damn. All right, so, I hate the way...Oh! People are just out of their minds, lately. They don't realize that if they email you, that their Klout score goes down?

    No. Let's talk about that. Seriously, let's get a little church up in here. Okay. Are you ready to go have a little church? Amen. All right. I love these people now, Have you noticed everybody is Kloutified? I spit Klout out two years ago and now everybody's losing their mind. The reality is, when you tweet that someone just gave you a plus K. I can guarantee that is dropping your Klout score.

    I hope it does.

    This Claire somebody from England the other day said I just think it's nice to thank people. I'm like; but you wouldn't do that in real life. I wouldn't say Matt Beran, here say something nice to me, Matt.

    Chris your hair looks extremely subtle today.

    Matt just said my hair looks extremely subtle. Isn't that great? Thank you Matt. The person next to me heard you.

    Yeah, and I'm lost, too I already forgot about you because you were talking to someone else.

    Oh, I just say people need to get over their Klout obsession. It's not Klout, it's the idea Klout.

    We talk about this all the time.

    Oh, God. Now I've got people from work saying they're watching the live stream. Oh, this is in trouble. Ironically, my last day of work. All right. So Google's got this new spyware. They're gonna actually be shutting down machines. I don't know what they're gonna be doing remotely, but This DNS changer.

    Have you guys heard of this DNS changer? Oh yeah. Yup. Hoover? No. You know? It's a government issue right? No. What is it? Maybe we should all get on the same board with our news array. So basically it's some type of a malware that changes your DNS to redirect it to another DNS server so that can send you to sites when you type in Google it might take you to some other site because DNS just does the translation there.

    But sometime in mid-June Google's going to actually cut off access to their service if your machine's been infected, I'll put a link in the show notes. Two things that are important to talk about this. If you just go out and Google DNS changer malware there's a page, one page you can click on, it'll tell you are you infected or not.

    Because it's just checking to see where you're DNS servers are. So that's a big thing, don't - and the reason I say that, I was just that Micro Center the other day, which is one of the little computer stores here in town, and they're charging $30 if you bring in your laptop or computer to find out if you've been infected.

    they're the new BASFI. Yeah. So yeah. Check it out. I think, you know, you just don't need to pay anyone to find out if you've been infected. More importantly, like Cooper said, if you depend on Google Google services. Mid-June when you can't access any of them, you'll know why. News, guys, got any more news?

    I've got news for days. Did you guys hear about this this rumor that Facebook might make a SmartPhone? Yeah, they're hiring a bunch of Apple developers? That rumors been around for like a year. It's been around for a little while, yeah. Didn't they already do it too. I thought...Oh, no. Someone else made a Facebook-only data phone that was like for kids.

    This one seems real. But you also on a podcast said employers really were asking for passwords to Facebook. And they were. Yeah, and still are probably. Who? Who? I've yet to find one article that actually names an employer who did.

    I'll send it to you.

    No one will share it because they wanna stay hired. Actually, Hooper's Smack.com.

    Yeah, Hooper's cut off on a than ask me for my passwords. Actually, you know what? I was just at a cookout this Sunday and one of my wife's cousins is a principal and she was saying there was school system that was doing that . They were also asking the teachers to give them their user names and password because kids might contact them, and they needed to be able to monitor that, and they said no.

    Yeah, there's a whole bunch of teachers out there that would love to friend their students and see them taking bong hits. Well I'm sure they'd love to friend their students. I've read their stories all all the time. Why does no one hire adults anymore? Hire adults that make responsible decisions. It bothers me.

    It bothers me crazy. Like, my wife has simple rules - she's a teacher. And I might add, she's an attractive teacher. I agree. And her rule is very simple. If you're a current student, not going to friend you ever. Like, graduate and yeah you can talk to me about Spanish. So once you graduate from your wife's class you can become her friend?

    Yeah, and you know, then she can see like how many of her Spanish students go on to do Spanish majors in college. Like, it's an easy way for her to do KPI on her...No mas. No mas. never mind. We're not going there. We should do a whole episode in Spanish. Google released a slide deck, which I thought was pretty cool very, very transparent of them talking about the anti-spam and the measures they take to protect you from password hacking.

    The title that was "The age of the password is over and never coming back." Point of this little news article is, again, if Google can put out something this intimate to their business to just anybody. I think it says a lot about business today or maybe they think they just can't...they can release that sort of thing and not worry about it.

    What really looked cool to me was they had department that was dedicated to a higher purpose. And it was dedicated first to this password cracking and then it was to hijack the this department sort of changed as what was happening changed. I think that is how I see innovation needing to happen I was talking to someone from Best Buy and she put it perfectly: The problem with Best Buy isn't that they're becoming the showroom for Amazon, because they are.

    That is what's happening. You know, people go and look and then they go buy it somewhere else where it's cheaper. The problem is that Best Buy hasn't figured out how to monetize, being the showroom for Amazon. Go where the market wants you to go. You need to be flexible and change as you need to change and not fire 37,000 people, that could be flexible and change.


    I think if Best Buy wants to become relevant, I told you this Barron, they should embrace the fact that they're showroom for Amazon, but employ people who are the Engadget in real life.

    Oh, yeah, yeah.

    That's right.

    All right, so we solved your problem, Best Buy. checks in the mail. We should just have a podcast where we solve world issues. And then sign checks and rip them up. And then rip up checks. So, Hooper, anything else going on in the world of CIO, start-ups, SIM no I don't have anything else. I think we covered it.

    That's it? That's it. Barron, you have anything else? Yeah, I got a couple things. Social media adoption. If you want social media adoption in your ITSM tools, you need to turn it on by default and not allow people to turn it off. Do you know why some people actually decide to foster parent over adopting.

    Try before you buy? Genetics? You know, you guys have just devolved humanity end of the crisis that I fear that it is. You just took children and made them try before you buy. Oh, God It's not like we're not streaming this entire show live and this can't be edited out. Oh, my Lord. Someone get me a crucifix.

    No, It just drives me crazy when people talk about adoption and stuff. I think there's a real good reason adoption and foster parenting were two activities within parenting realm. And I think, you know, when people say we need to foster this idea of adoption within our enterprise, they don't really ever actually think about the word adoption and I think to actually look up the word adoption would probably be the most relevant thing to do.

    Do you want to hear my analogy I give when I'm teaching ITIL? You are an ITIL teacher, by the way probably looking for work. Great. When I talk about adoption, I use the analogy of a guy who's maybe dating an a woman with kids. I thought you were going to say a dating a white woman. That's what I thought you were going to say.

    I was like, where is this going? of kids and the kid gets sick. They might say, "Well, we're not gonna go out to the movie. We may stay home." Things like that, right? Whereas if the point where the kid gets sick and he's ready to sell his sports car, ready to give up his condo to help pay for the bills, and take things to the next level to really care for that kid.

    That's the level of adoption. It's a true commitment. You know? It's how much you invested in this relationship. So, it's like the processes and the organization that you build around the organization you build and the processes you institute around that organization, how committed are you? And how far are you willing to go?

    Whereas if you foster parent in an organization. You're more concerned with the general wellbeing of the population of children.


    And getting them through a crisis so that you can move on and help the next appropriate needy person. Fostering makes more sense in the enterprise than adopting.


    Fostering is actually agile human care. whereas adoption is very single minded egotist type of thing.

    Well, I would say from a process perspective, but from a cultural perspective, I'm not sure I agree. I think adoption is critical.

    Oh yeah.

    I could've went with a single payer system there when you dropped the health care issue earlier, but I didn't. All right.

    That went right over my head.

    In our ever not to be political podcast, my final story, and I'm gonna let. Do you have one more at least, Baron?

    Data sexiness.

    Okay, we'll make that the last one. My last one is from Engadget, 5-22, so recently. But not really if. So they have now successfully. I'm trying to figure out what school it was. But I was in a fight with Jeff Brooks from Gartner at the Service Now event. Oh, ching. And I said to him, because he's all about the data center, I said, "Dude, data centers don't exist in the future, you are the data center." I've said this before, I've tweeted it, Dude, you're the If you're between 30 and 50, you're gonna have data in you.

    It's just a matter of time, right? You were the floppy disk. We've already proved that you're the platform. now scientists have developed rewritable digital storage built in your DNA. And this was...we've been flirting with this for some time. But it was the re-writable using, at Stanford they did this last week using natural enzymes that create re-writable storage directly in living DNA cells.

    So, I'll just ask you too: given the choice, now you might not be comfortable with the idea today, but given the choice, where do you feel most safe with your data? In my pocket, on a thumb drive. Right. Middle of my heart. All right, so two extremes. One host says, "on the device in my pocket, closest to the probably thing you cherish the most," and the other the other host says in the middle of the heart.

    Or brain. Or brain. I don't know. I just think that the time for me to bring my own device was a red herring for the fact that I could be able to come into the enterprise, pick up anything and just grab it, and boom. There is my data. Right there. There's your USB interface. There's your FireWire.

    There's your Thunderbolt. This is not a 20-year thing. This is a 6-year thing. We'll be doing a podcast then and I'll talk about how I shared photos at a table in the airport lounge of Cathay Pacific that I was admired to 'cause I was a Klout high score person.

    By touching it?


    Fantastic. And if you need to back it up, you just shake hands with someone?



    Did you wash that data after you were done?

    Did you wash the data?

    Is this clean data?

    Alright dirty.

    I mean the Dyson Handblades. Can you imaging those things?

    That 's the format. That's the format.

    All exit interviews you have to take their hands and just.

    Scary . I like it though. Yeah. I think you're getting close. The Google goggles thing kind of goes that way. And anyway.

    Dude, speaking of Google goggles Okay sorry.


    Did you guys see the second video that's been released now?

    Yeah, the trampoline thing?

    The trampoline. Hooper.


    So this guy's released a video now and it's really interesting because it shows him using Google Goggles. So it's the recording of him using them, right? So it's his vision outward or using the camera. And what I thought was so amazing about this was there's this viral video it's going around this weekend.

    Well, this guy asked his wife to marry him while she's in a truck and he's got a bunch of people dancing along and stuff. And it's cute, but had that been shot from her point of view, using Google Goggles, that would have totally changed that dynamic.

    And from his point of view.


    I'll have to check it out.

    Yeah, we'll check it out.

    So, Chris sent me this awesome article about Data Sexiness, and you kind of talk about this breed of people that are sort of emerging to be Digital OCD,dData hungry .

    Now this is the rise of the datasexual?

    Yes, the datasexual.

    Hooper's like. Look at Hooper's face. Did he just say datasexual? Go ahead.

    It makes sense that people, and you see them, there are people who want bit of data. I heard it on NPR yesterday that there was a guy, he wants his ICD data from Medtronic. Like, he wants to know all the stats about his pump. And I think that it's a growing breed. I feel like I am one of these people.

    I wanna know all the data about everything that I'm doing all the time but I'm also, sort of, lazy sexual. I want the devices and. Yeah, exactly I want the devices and tools.

    Not all devices should have sensors. Let me just stop you there.

    I want them to manage that. for me so that...because I don't have the time. And photos is a perfect case where I want to save every photo ever taken. And my wife wants...she wants the ones that look bad. But I want to say even that look bad are blurry. I want to say that every single one of them but I don't have the time to go through them and organize them in any way, shape or form.

    So, until the devices are better at doing that for me.

    Where are all those images that are blurry and not shaped? And where are they all saved now?

    Google Drive and Dropbox. Both.

    No. How about if he didn't have anything technical. In his head? Exactly.

    Oh, yeah.

    Just to bring it around, kids.

    I know, I just wish that I could get them out of my head. I need.

    That's a medication question, that's not really about this topic.

    You take that pill and now, it out comes the pictures.

    There is, there's actually pills that do, they've got a, I'll put a link to the show notes. They'll be the last show notes. There's actually medication now that will actually re-selective memories.

    I think I've got the wired article over here somewhere.

    The last three years would not be one them. All right guys is that it? it. Are we done?

    That's is, we're done.

    I'm gonna go ahead and put a couple of other things in the show notes for you guys. Matt tweeted out something about his Klout score being affected the day he showed up at Knowledge, I've got a great screen shot of that, that I want to get get out to you guys. Obviously, the Facebook saga is not over yet with the IPO scandal.

    Service Now obviously lots of things changing there. Back to ITSM, the Facebook group is just going nuts. And then I tried out this thing the other day called UberConference and it's pretty damn cool.

    Oh. What's the name of the service that backs up everything from a conference?

    Which one? There's about a hundred.

    The one you did in your Digital Literacy one. I want to save all my tweets from Knowledge, so that I can justify my attendance next year.

    How nice! I used two things, I use Topsy and I use -


    Yeah, Topsy. Target stats for that sort of thing. Okay, we will see everybody in two weeks, and hopefully we'll have our friend from SalesForce, or old SalesForce on for that show. Hooper, best, you know.

    I don't know.

    Come out with an app.

    Upward and downward, baby.

    So yeah. Just because you're not in mass challenge, that just means you pay rent, that doesn't mean anything else, right?


    It's not bad, it's not a bad thing.

    Just means we choose another direction on how we operate. No big deal.

    So you're okay. All right. This has been ITSM Weekly, the podcast episode 90. Most old women don't get to be this old. And we will talk to everyone in two weeks. Thank you so much. Bye.

    Thanks everybody.


    This was ITSM Weekly. Thank you for listening. For more information about this podcast and ITSM news, go to ITSMWeekly.com.

    # vimeo.com/43408466 Uploaded
  4. Guest: Richard White, CEO UserVoice Twitter: @rrwhite

    Forbes: Top 25 Social CIO's. Are you eligible to be a CIO if you don't use Social Media?
    Silicon Valley Echo Chamber
    itSMF USA Chapter President, is the kiss of death?
    Why I left Salesforce!
    Marcus Nelson
    OMG!!! Marcus Nelson, CONFOUNDER of UserVoice.
    What happens when your employees leave to THINK they can do it better, especially when company it's as big as SALESFORCE.
    Corporate Transparency is the new culture.
    You were not HIRED because of your Klout Score.Klout is the new netRAGE
    The Klout debate
    Klout Tutorial on HOW to change your categories
    Klout Perks are bag schwag v2
    Klout the 3rd Rail of Social Business
    Klout Douchebag Bag / Klouchebag Meter
    Conference Speakers and Klout the Blog
    Klout Mobile App
    Peer Index and Kred (the alternative to Klout?)
    Klout algorithm changed and people LOST their MINDS
    K Holes Ketamine vs Klout
    Chris in Japan
    Reputation, and Knowledge Lockers
    The email from Slideshare 10,000 views on ServiceSphere slides
    Did LinkedIn purchase Slideshare to reinforce their a desire to create a reputation/recommendation network?
    LinkedIn has a DATA problem
    Acquire-Hire (Robert Scoble, Kevin Rose, Digg Team to Washington Post)
    Frictionless Sharing is BURNING me.
    Dennis Berman - @dkberman: In May 2021, Zuckerberg juicing strangers for $11 billion wearing a black hoodie will be see as a revolutionary moment...or a punchline.
    BREAKING NEWS!!!! Google and Oracle GOING to COURT!
    CEO of Yahoo and the resume debacle
    CEO Ryan Holms from Hootsuite Podcast
    K Fluffing Go Go Boys
    Help Desk 2.0 Companies: OneDesk, UserVoice, Desk.com, Zendesk, FreshDesk, SherpaDesk, NanoRep, IuvoDesk, Get Satisfaction, Paturaure.
    HDI 2012 Conference and Richard White!
    "In an Age where you NEVER see your customers, how do you actually communicate with them?"
    Started as feedback then backed into Help Desk 2.0
    Modern SaaS Help Desk
    Free Version of UserVoice
    Help Desk is EMBRACING the PAST.
    "If you don't actually respond to your customer support requests, YOU'RE an ASSHOLE, and more than an ASSHOLE, you’re a company that is not going to LAST very long"
    UserVoice has a mission to move from customer support to customer service via finding out, "WHO ARE THE CUSTOMERS NOT contacting me"
    HDI conference vs. Help Desk 2.0 Software
    ITSM Conference the Jobs Program for IT of the 1990's.
    Creepy killed the Canary (Big Data kills the customers relationship)
    Zobni for the Helpdesk (Repportive and LinkedIn)
    Targeting your influencers works well only at the HUNGER GAMES.
    External Support and Internal Support the merger is HAPPENING now in B2C companies.
    THROW AWAY your processes.
    SLA's and BPM are NOT included in USERVOICE, because YOUR CUSTOMERS DEFINE those things, NOT YOU or YOUR DESK!!!
    Help Desk and Service Desk nomenclature ruins support, IT and the world.
    Support STARTS in the vision stage of a company in MARKETING.
    Agile development
    Presales, Post sales, marketing, accounting.... it’s all just customer communication.
    Eric Ries The Lean Startup
    Willy Nilly and Loosey Goosey (Hooper talks agile)
    Agile Support, Support handled like engineering
    Adaptive Case Management
    Richard White - Making Sexy Products for UNSEXY markets.
    ServiceNow Conference

    ITSM weekly, the podcast for your news, inside analysis and information from the world of IT Service Management. Your host Matthew Hooper, Chris Dancy, and Matt Beran. IT Service Management Weekly, the podcast starts now.

    Welcome ITSM Weekly, The Podcast episode 89 for the weekend in May 14, 2012. Hello, Matt Hooper.

    Hello, Chris Dancy.

    It's good. You've got no technical difficulties, Matt. This is a good day. So joining us today, I've got Richard White, who we're making a gigantically good impression on. Richard, you are the CEO of UserVoice. Is that correct?

    That is correct. As far as I know.

    Now Mrs. White might actually be the CEO. That's probably more true isn't it?

    That's right. Yes.

    Alright. I remember you mentioned your wife when I met you, so for those of you who don't know about UserVoice, we're gonna find all about UserVoice, coming up and when we actually get Richard and his thought and opinion and analysis on the world of sport. But we're gonna start with News Gator.

    We don't have Matt Beran today. So, the first thing I wanna bring up is the article, guys. I read this in, I don't know what it was, oh it was in Forbes. So, it's not too many pop-up ads. It was called "The Top 25 social CIOs of Fortune 250" and article starts off with imagine a CIO, or head of a company, who's never configured a router.

    Imagine a CIO who's never managed the implantation of a server. Imagine a CIO who's never sourced or negotiated a contract. Can you imagine a CIO who's never used social media? And then they go on to talk about the importance of social media, and then some leading, top leading CIOs and CXOs using social media.

    Richard, as someone in an executive position in a company, what is your experience with executives using social media and then let your, where you live and your influence taint your answer.

    Where I live? Oh, you mean don't get influenced by the echo chamber of Silicon Valley is that what you mean by that?

    Yeah. Yes, the echo chamber you're in.

    CEO see titles for a company of about 22 people. So I think it's maybe somewhat disingenuous of me to make a comment on what an actual CIO of a Fortune 500 company would do.

    I can't imagine anyone not having any social media experience? Like zero? I mean, where do you find such a person?

    That's what they're saying. Is it acceptable for CIO who's never, and they list some things, configured a router, put in a server, or worked on a contract, or, and then they go on to say did anything in social media, that's they're not on LinkedIn, I mean can you imagine an executive not on LinkedIn, Richard?

    Yeah, it's funny, I know some of the guys on our team aren't on Facebook, for like personal reasons, they don't ascribe to it, but at least they know what it is, right?


    LinkedIn, I can't imagine that. Yeah. I can see all sorts of reasons why you might not want to be on LinkedIn, but you should have a savvy answer for why you're not, it's a roundabout way of saying no.

    It's a tough one 'cause I read this and thought, if Forbes is saying this, because Forbes has an interesting dynamic. It's got people who wanna be executives and it's got real executives. So, their news has to be, kind of, we'll tell you the hype but then we won't really spoil it with any facts.


    So I read this as if I'm a CIO, is this telling me that I'm missing out. Or is this some fad, what is this really doing for me? So, I don't know.

    It's hard to say right? Like I would say that, you know, you kind of need to be a citizen of the world to know how you're going to build products for that world. Having said that, I wouldn't be upset if someone didn't watch American Idol and try to be an executive, so that, are you that? Maybe everything that's good for most people isn't required to be an executive.

    But social media seems like an obvious thing you should be doing, but it's just me.

    As soon as they lose their job, they'll be on it.

    There you go.

    Speaking of lose their job, ITSMF which Richard, we'll talk about your organization. We're gonna really dive into it, deep. ITSMF, Richard, I met you at the HDI conference, so ITSMF is a global, kind of, practitioner, hardcore IT support.

    It's like the CPA version of accountants. This is like the certification type membership. I didn't even go on all of it, but people who listen to this show know what it is. The fact that you don't know, is what actually makes me happy. But ITSMF actually has a strange thing that way, every single ITSMF president we've had here in the United States for the past 4 years has left the presidency but now is unemployed, which I think is kind of interesting in itself.

    The next article I wanna bring up, and Richard, I really wanted to bring that up 'cause I think it's the kiss of death in that organization and I'm on their podcast. The next article I read. Hooper, and I think if you didn't read this, I think it's definitely something for you to check out. Richard. It's called "Why I left Salesforce ".

    Basically, this guy, Marcus Nelson been at Salesforce, from the beginning when they were just the big CRM company basically live through the platform days, and now that the entire company is transitioning to a social company, as Salesforce calls it, he feels that it's unmanageable now that they're all focused on social.

    Not only from an internal collaborations perspective, but externally there too many cooks in the message for it. And he's leaving, and very publicly, because he feels that they don't manage their social well, because they've become a social company. It, kind of, was on the heels of that other guy who left the big accounting firm, and then wrote that nice little nasty scathing piece.

    This guy's piece isn't scathing, but I guess my question for you is how would you feel if you run a company who's core mission it was, you're employees left and said you guys don't even do you're core mission, well I'm gonna do it better? Does this happen all the time? Or is this something unique in this guy.

    I mean, do you have feelings about this guy? Marcus Nelson.

    You're setting me up here, right?

    Yes, of course.

    Marcus is actually one of the co-founders of UserVoice. Did you know he wrote? Did you know he wrote this article?

    Of course, absolutely, yeah.

    All right.

    I'm sitting here like well you're lobbying me like this is the most, this is, yeah, the most obvious question ever.

    No seriously, dude. Richard. Okay, just so people know, I just met you. I don't know who the co-founder is. I thought it was you.

    So, there's a number of co-founders to UserVoice, of which Marcus is one of them.


    And Marcus left a couple years to go become head of social media over at Salesforce. And I think that's the title he had. And I did read this post, it was interesting. I had a lot of thoughts on Salesforce. I think it's hard to draw any conclusions from companies that move, that are high growth, and as big as they are, right?


    So, when he got there he was by all accounts, and I should just connect you with him, but by all accounts the only guy really versed in social media. Right and so, that was like 3 years ago. And, as he wrote, it's been a sea change, now they're social everything.

    Literally, everything, I mean the company itself pivoted it's on social.

    Right. And Marcus is kind of a start-up guy at heart, right? So he's going off to do another start-up again. And I've got to imagine it's one of those things where he's kind of a, he's a Johnny Appleseed right, he goes in the Salesforce. By the time they've all switched over and they believe in the message of social, he's not needed as much anymore, right.

    That's his mission, right? His mission was to convert that company over to getting it. And it's very clear that that mission succeeded, so he's onto another mission that's why I read between the lines of that.


    So I don't think too much away from Salesforce sight, take away from that, that they're on the right path.

    I try not to share a whole lot of links on, I've got a couple of accounts on the Twitters. But I was so compelled by how well written the story was. About just the growth he went through at the company. And how open and transparent he was, it's not a bad article about Salesforce, it's just he's done.


    He's moving on and doing 'cause it's. And I thought, "Wow, that is pretty damn cool."

    To all the stuff in UserVoice, we try to be, kind of, the transparent company where we kinda write our thoughts. We write like in depth reports about what it was like to raise money, or what it was like to, what we used for, what sort of tools we use, I mean, and I think a lot of that stuff is, you know, we learned or I learned from Marcus just kind of being. There's a way to be transparent in a way that's engaging and without being too judgmental, which I think he does a very good job of.

    Well it's funny because at the end of the article he says, "If you're interested in joining up". And I said, "Sign me up!" It's been six months I've been at this job, I'm ready to go. I'm like a Johnny Appleseed. I don't even get a chance to look at fruit, that's how quick I'm in and out of these past years.

    I didn't read the article. I'd love to read it, though. It sounds like a great one.

    Alright, something I think both of you can relate to. At least I know Hooper can. And I can't wait to hear your opinion, Richard. So, there's two camps obviously going on. There was a wired magazine article two weeks ago about some guy who didn't get a job or got a job or something, because of Klout.

    And there seems to be this Klout Rage all over the place that, 'I hate Klout' then the same article 'I love Klout', Klout this and then people like, "I'm influential on Penguins", you know in all this stuff is really, you can tell it what your wants one and spend your little Klout points or whatever. NetDeck, I think, Klouts going further just kind of what I think it could go for. I'll leave my opinion out for a minute.

    Hooper, you've been very vocal about your opinion on Klout. Let's start with Richard. Richard, Klout.

    Oh, man it's like the third rail of social media these days, I feel. One of our guys is influential in bread. I'm sorry, sorry. Not bread. Went to a bacon and teeth. What?

    But come on, Richard. Don't do this to me, Richard.

    But that's his choice 'cause you can close those categories. And is it a UI problem?

    It could, it could.

    Yeah, okay.

    But that's what he's adjusted right.


    Like, back when they did their perks. My other co-founder, Scott. Also with UserVoice. Scott is bald and they sent him shampoo.


    So, I think that was also kind of funny too. So when you get Klout perks, we get you the Klout perks box at least once a week and usually, it was something that nobody else wanted, right? It was like bad schwag, right? It was like someone had left a schwag and decided to mail it around the country. However, I've actually found myself checking my Klout account a couple of times recently in the last month.

    It's completely a good system. I think the end vision is noble and is worth pursuing. I think it's like a lot of these things, pursuing something that makes sense out of a lot of text data. Right? So like lots of data goes in, and something actually intelligent goes out, it's actually extremely hard.

    You should try being my colon.

    Garbage in, garbage out, right?


    So, I mean it's really hard. And so the fact that they're even figuring out anything. Like now, I mean I don't even modify in myself, and it says I'm influential in startups and entrepreneureship and customer service. Okay, cool.


    Also, it says airport which is also true. Because I actually bitch a lot about airport design.


    So I think it's pursuing a noble goal. I did see the klouchbag, did you see that one? Where it's like see how much like how Klout douche bag you are?


    I thought that was kind of cute. I mean this is the classic like once they're upset with you, you're onto something, right? It means they're sparking some debate.


    So I am still pro-Klout from where it's going. I think it creates a lot of funny, kind of like ha ha ha, look how silly that analysis was in the meantime, but I give them props.

    See, I'm pro-Klout for what it could be.


    I'm not a fan of Klout for what it is. I think that Klout used in the right circumstances, you know, there's a storm going on for the back to ITSM Facebook page about speaking. And Chris wrote a blog recently about speakers and how they're rated. And the circle of speakers at conferences. Pretty much anybody that goes to conferences will tell you has very few great speakers.

    Except for me.

    Except for you.

    And my Klout score shows that, though.

    That's a unique experience, but that's also probably not because of you are being a great speaker. I think it's more because if you're more of a great speaker in the space that you are speaking which is social enterprise, right? And so when you go to a conference and you speak and you talk about Klout scores. People say, "What the hell is Klout?" And they go there and say, "Oh, yes, he was a great speaker." So I think that's a bias.

    It's definitely bias.

    Whereas if you were actually at a conference and I could Klout score the people in the sessions.

    And there's a mobile app now, so you can do that now. That's just new in the last two weeks.

    Well, this is what I said when I started my comments. For what it is today, I'm not a fan. But for where it could go, I think I'm all over it.


    It's gotta get there, it's not there yet.


    But I'm glad that they're moving in my direction.

    Well, they have to move in your direction because.

    They want to succeed.

    My big theory about Klout riches is they end up being foursquare for coupons, right? For hyper-special you know and there's no way I'm ever going to get a perk for Sass. What perk would they give me for Sass.

    Rack space.

    What perk would they give me for social what perk would they give me for social enterprise?

    What would that perk look like, right?

    You can get a free Twitter account.

    I almost want to be a specialist in pizza, just so I can get something.




    But that's my fear that it ends up that way. But you've seen Richard; the volume of data they're dealing with is impressive enough, and it's not just Klout, you've got Kred, or I think they just go by Cred now. You got Pure Index. You've got all these other people.

    Well, all that stuff is fairly new and I feel like that's kind of pushing them and I think in the absence of competition, they were kinda just becoming this like this kind of static kind of joke thing. I think the Cred and these other guys are kind of pushing them; and maybe it's part of their plan, it has made I think their scores a little more recent, a little more decomposable because of the competition.

    Well, that and everybody lost their mind like six months ago when they re-did their algorithm and their scores dropped by 10 points. Nobody cared about Klout 'till then and then all of a sudden, it's like you come out of your Klout closet. You're just a big limp wristed Klout-y, you know, we knew you were a sister from way back.

    But they're all feel-good metrics, though, right? Even your Klout scores; it's someone saying, "Yes I think Chris is a great speaker."

    No, because no, no, no.

    It's not because they're watching your video and anonymously saying, "Thumbs up, thumbs down." It's not Pandora on steroids with the learning and the psycho-demographic that you need to understand it and vote up, right?

    It's still a biased, influential data collection.

    So, I do, I agree it's biased, but I don't think there's any person 'cause K's don't give you anything by falling in a K-hole and I haven't done that in decade. So it's actually what people do with your data. To me, I said it in a post somewhere, I'd rather machine telling me how good I am doing than someone who hates the fact that I'm either overweight, who knows. List the things that you can hate about me right. When it comes down to it I rather have a algorithm, and Richard knows a lot about algorithms.

    The plus K thing is an interesting addition which I'm less keen on, right?


    Because I feel like a lot of times you get into this bias where you have lots of people which are very friendly and have lots of friends but aren't the actual experts in things, right?

    'Cause the actual experts don't have the time to go around and make that many friends, to be honest. And I feel like when you get away from this hardcore algorithm attack to saying well let's see how many people we can get to K plus 1U then we're kind of back in the chattering class bubble if you will that you get sometimes on Twitter.

    Right. It's like being the mayor of you couch; like the mayor of you couch versus like


    The mayor of Shinjuku Station in Japan. It's like there's a big difference between. And I've been to Shinjuku Station in Japan, I'll put a picture in the show notes. So, speaking of Klout, to me there's two pieces of this, right? You got your online reputation, whether it's your coach or not.

    The other thing is your knowledge locker, your data locker, whatever you wanna look at it, right? My collection of knowledge I keep in my upper note, whatever you want to call it. LinkedIn buying SlideShare, to me was more about LinkedIn going after Klout than LinkedIn looking for a content company.

    And I'll tell you why I say this, 'cause now you're both like, "What the hell is he talking about?"

    Yeah, tell us what.

    I got an email about an hour before I was all the tweets about it, right? And I'm like Richard, I don't follow a whole lot of people - Richard, by the way I like your Twitter style - I don't follow a lot about time, and the people, I do follow them, means you got my attention, right?

    You got my attention, you better use it wisely or I'm gonna unfollow you and put you on the list and check back later on. That being said, about an hour before the Twitter-storm went off. I got an email saying, "Congratulations, you've had over 10,000 or a hundred thousand views on your slides. I thought, "Oh wow, what a great stat."

    I didn't know I had that many views on the presentations I posted. And then of course all this happens. And then I thought to myself, if LinkedIn bought like SlideShare. It's just, and I wouldn't thought this had I not gotten that email and it's kind of weird why I've never gotten a status email from slideshow in my life.

    I'll put a picture of it in the show notes. So basically they know they're my slides, right? And now, it's tied to my profile. I think there's a little bit of recommendation to be said there.

    Yeah, that just came out last week I believe and usually I rely on reading all the various like pundits online. So, I don't sound like an idiot when I try to say why I think someone acquired someone else, but everyone knows that Linkedin also has. They actually have kind of a data problem, I think.

    And that most people I know don't check back into LinkedIn unless they're looking for a job. I mean, truly, like I haven't looked at my LinkedIn profile in.

    Yeah, you're just the first person to admit it, that's why I laughed, I like it.

    I looked at my LinkedIn profile, and I'm like, "Oh yeah." There isn't even a bio in there, because I haven't needed a job in years, right?

    And that's a problem when LinkedIn gets lumped in with Facebook and all these other social media things is Facebook, Twitter, are very high engagement, right? You're in there daily. LinkedIn you're in there yearly, maybe? So I see them - and also for them it's important to have good data on - not everyone's gonna put on someone's watch here, but people that are known for someone's watch here are the more valuable users to them.

    They are the Christianities. They are that recruiters would drool over to have access to. So the more data they can get on you and the more they can get you going back in LinkedIn, the better. That's my guess of why they would buy it just off the cuff.

    But did LinkedIn buy the technology of a SlideShare, or did they buy the platform of everybody's IP that they've been uploading under the terms of service?

    I imagine both, right?


    The content's probably more valuable than they could have built their own platform.

    There's this old saying that, "If it's free, you're the product." And I literally believe nowadays that you're not the product anymore. That's too small. You're the platform nowadays.


    Yeah, Hooper?

    Yeah I know, it's the same discussion we had around the Instagram buy, right? It certainly, it's taking beautiful pictures, it's a great technology, but that wasn't the input is, there's other factors in an acquisition always.

    Well, LinkedIn is also just fresh off an IPR, right? So they're looking for I think, we're seeing a lot of acquisitions these days, a whole lot of acquisitions.

    It's nuts.

    All the way from acquire higher acquisitions up to bigger things.

    What do you think about acquire hire? You're the first person to say it, I think about it all the time, I just don't bring it up on the show. But, to me, Robert Scoble set the stage for paid personalities. And Google's purchase, or acquire/hire of Kevin Rosen team was nothing more than buying Kevin Rose's following.

    Basically, because I'm not sure what Kevin Rosen is doing day to day any more.

    And like Google, who knows? Does he even go there? He works there now.

    Well, how long will he not have a Google+ profile, right? Is that the question? How long before they have to annoy him. By the way, you work for us now, you have to have one of these profiles.

    And the entire Digg team was just, well I guess not Digg, but the team was just bought by someone.

    Washington Post.

    Yeah, WaPo.

    Yep, the makers of the most annoying Facebook app I can think of.

    Oh, dude! I know they call it frictionless sharing, but when it shares what I'm reading, I wanna catch it on fire. There's friction.


    I hate that. It's just like, Chris just watched somebody's pooping the video.

    It's like, "No! No! I don't want anyone to know I just watched someone's pooping the video." That's not why I site, no. So, I am literally in there, turning apps off daily on Facebook.

    Just wait until it starts tweeting that you watched that.

    Oh, dude, don't. I do not. Twitter is like my 15-year-old daughter, you won't get access, not gonna happen. So, what's his real name? I think he's a WaPo writer, Dennis Berman. Was he a WaPo writer? I think he is, we'll just leave it there. He said in May 20-21, Zuckerberg juicing strangers for $11 billion, wearing a black hoodie, will be seen as revolutionary, or a punchline?

    I mean you can kind of say that. That 's how almost all these things go, right? I mean that's what happens with high-growth techs. They end up being awesome or you exceed it. I don't think that's specific to Facebook.

    And maybe the $11 billion part is.

    And well, they're way more than that, right?

    I think they're talking about his money.

    Oh, his money, yeah. Yeah.

    Yeah. I mean he's gonna have some pretty crazy money. I mean I was talking to a friend the other day, and he was like, "Are you going to buy anything?" I was like, "I don't know." I'd have to cash in all the shares no one knows I have now 'cause he's on the show every week. You don't know this, Richard, but every week Zuckerberg shows up, we just don't actually hear that, so.


    Well it's all the IPO lockdown.

    Of course. Hoop, thoughts on Facebook and all the money talk lately?

    Not much, not much. It's kind of old news if you ask me. What I do have good news, one of the newest things I did want to talk about though today, was.

    I'm say you're used to you not being prepared, sorry.

    I actually am prepared today.

    I have breaking news.

    Ross, throw me in some breaking news soundbite.

    So it looks like Google and Oracle are going to court over Google's infringement of the use of Java and not having license rights to put it to the Android app. So, this has fairly significant ramifications.

    Only for the lawyers.

    It's not really just for the lawyers. You've got to look at almost everybody who's using some king of embedded Java in their applications today, and almost everybody is. I mean you guys are using embedded Java someplace in your apps, right Richard?

    Embedded Java? No.

    Yeah, like Java Query, no Java applications in your technology?

    We have Javascript with Jquery, but that's not the same thing as the stuff that's coming out with Java. So, no. I don't think we have anything. We are looking at using Erlang, which I think runs on the JVM, I think. I might sound stupid for having just said that though. It's been a while since my CS degree.

    But, no, we don't have anything Java.

    At least you have one, unlike the CEO of Yahoo.

    Zing. Yeah. You're just trying to get me to to get on the wrong side of everyone in this town, aren't you?

    No, I'm not, dude. Do you know Ryan, from HootSuite, the CEO over at HootSuite.

    So, we had him on right in the middle of when Twitter was shutting down companies. They used anything to do with 'cause they just wanted to own up.

    The clients, yeah.

    And Hooper asked him, "What are you gonna do when they shut you down?" I'm like, "Oh god, you know, what are you?" Hooper, do you remember that uncomfortable?

    That 's the question I guess you could ask, right?


    And so, the thing is, is what we're talking about here is that there's a ton of open source licenses in the market that every small software and every large software, every internal enterprise is running for the most part. This open-source space is something that has a lot of ramifications when they start setting certain boundaries on it.

    So this is a pretty big headline. I think bigger than the fact that Thompson lied on his resume. Which in and of itself is kind of crazy, 'cause the fact is it's because he's been doing such a terrible job. It has nothing really to do with the fact that he didn't have a CS degree.

    I mean do you like the lawsuite thing? It really only applies to, the key with open-source is always like you don't need a license, in a lot of cases, if you're not bundling with something, right?


    For a SAS business, this stuff doesn't matter, because we're not bundling it, we're not actually delivering you a stack of code, right, a digital stack of code. Now, bundling stuff into something you download, install your computer or install on your handset is something else. But, the number of people who actually do that anymore is vanishingly small and less and less every day.

    So, yes, it's a big thing, but I haven't heard anyone losing sleep over it recently. I imagine that would just be kind of Google will step up with some cash, and Oracle will be satiated and go away.

    I'm with you, Richard. I read about it and I thought, "Good for the lawyers," 'cause they're the only only people making money in this. And not that I have anything against lawyers, but it's a reality. And when everybody's sort of bashing - I even tweeted, I said, you know who's winning the war on all this Klout-rage?

    PeerIndex and Kred. 'Cause they're not getting mentioned, they're not even in the articles.


    So either people are quietly flocking over there and fluffing their scores. Like they're at a disco with go-go boys fluffing. No one's noticing what's happening, right? Cred and PeerIndex are really winning. But this show is about support. I don't know. Richard, I'm sorry. I got so excited 'cause you're on, and you're out there, had to jump through all myself.

    So, Richard, to get started to talking about you guys. I went through real quick, right before the show, and I made a list of all the companies that won't talk about IT help desk because they consider it to be the kiss of death. I'll let you say how you feel about that. But all these kind of what I call kind of help desk 2.0 companies, right?

    Because I'm old. I come from the '90s where he had old DOS help desks and stuff. Literally, DOS. So, yeah. One desk, UserVoice, Assistly, Desk, Zendesk, Sherpa desk, Fresh desk, Nana Rep, iuvoDesk, I've never even heard of them but they're really in the social kind of thing. And then you've kind of got the fringe kind of customer people like that satisfaction pair out there.

    Richard, where would you put UserVoice in all of this, and I'm not sure if you remember but the first thing I said when I realized who you were and we connected 'cause you kind of walked into the conference - and we'll talk about that in a second - at HDI, and I said, "Dude, I liked you guys." 'Cause you were the first company that ever said, "Oh, no, we have no problem with the word 'help desk'."

    Right. I think your first thing to me was, "What are you doing here?"

    Yeah, well, I'd happen to go under.

    You're only from Kansas, kind of thing, or something.


    Which is true. So, how do I look at those things? I mean it's interesting, because like I said, I've never worked in a large company. The largest company I've ever worked in is the one I'm working in right now, which is 22 people. So, I don't really understand the inner workings of a lot of large companies, and sometimes I think that's in my benefit.

    Certainly in terms of my insanity. We started UserVoice, not around, I mean we didn't think about in terms of customer support or customer feedback. We think of it in terms of, how do you, in an age where you never see your customers, right? You will never have face-to-face interactions with your customers, going forward.

    Right. You will operate on the web. You will barely see them. They will show up as blips on your Google Analytics radar. How do you actually communicate with people? So, we actually started out focusing on doing large scale customer feedback and kind of communicating one demand. Getting people to say, "Hey there's 300 of us that want you to build this feature."

    Now we can actually have a conversation about whether we should build that feature or not. And then we kind of honestly, kind of backed into this help desk 2.0 space where we kind of said, "Hey, there's something really there." 'Cause we talked to people and said it's basically Zendesk when we started building our help desk product about two and half years ago.

    Zendesk was the only option out there, Desk.com. Back then, Assistly hadn't launched. And Zendesk was the only one that these guys could use, that kinda fit what I look at as like modern kind of "saas-tech" like you can quit in under an hour. It costs less than a hundred dollars a month to start. Hopefully, there's a free version. We have a free version of our help desk and its easy to use, and I mean ZenDesk was some of those things and not others but it was the only game in town a couple years ago, and so now more people have shown up, the FreshDesk and the and stuff like that, and ourselves but to me help desk is kind of embracing the past.

    This is the minimal set of things you need to do, right? I mean if you don't actually respond to your customer support requests, you're an asshole, right? And more than an asshole, your company is not gonna last very long. It's like breathing. It's like you have to do this. And since you have to do, let's give you a solution that makes it easier for you to that.

    But beyond that, I really think the way we differentiate from those guys is, we don't focus as much on the words "customer support" or "help desk". I actually look more to things like customer service, and helping and understanding customers. More of our mission is going forward is that try to figure out who are the people not contacting you?

    Right? Do a great job of supporting people when they do have an issue. But how do you talk to them before they have an issue? Or, after they have an issue? Or just talk get to know who are they, what do they like about your product, what could be better. So I was a little fish out of water at that conference, but it was interesting.

    Well no, I think it was a good conference for you to be. I thought your comments were priceless because Hooper, he's tweeting like where am I, is this for real? And he's at the HDI conference and I think I finally broke down and told them, so what you're looking at is the remnants of a job program from the '90s for people who no longer have sound cards to install, but still need jobs.

    Well, the problem is they're still so focused on support and not what Richard just talked about, which is engagement.

    Well, no. Well, yes that you said it. I do not think they're focused on support at all. They're focused on enablement, as if their users are drug addicts and they have to keep them hooked. I don't think they're focused on engagement or support.

    I mean when people talk about customer experience management, like I'm speaking at a conference this next week.

    And what's the name of that conference?

    It's called SCORE.

    SCORE, oh yes.

    It's run by the Customer Relationship Management Institute and what they've got for speakers is, the traditional taking customer satisfaction data to the next level. And they actually asked me to speak on a panel called "Mining for Gold in Big Data". So I entitled my session, "Creepy Killed the Canary", and I'm gonna talk only about the fact of how these big companies, if they go after using big data to engage their customers, they're gonna screw it up.

    They're gonna do the target move where sent the 16-year-old girl pregnancy test and her father didn't even know she was pregnant kind of thing, right? So it's a flawed exercise of trying to support or deal with customers instead of actually engaging them.

    No one's talking about big data and support yet.

    Sure they are.

    We just had something where we launched like having social media like profile integration into our help desk.

    What does that mean?

    So that means, so when I'm looking at support team from someone I can see, who they are on LinkedIn, have they talked about my company recently on Twitter, are they on SlideShare, what's their name, what's their job title, that sort of thing.

    What was that program, Hooper. It's Zaboni. Xobni?

    Xobni, yeah.

    It's like Xobni for the help desk.

    Yeah. Xobni or there's another company that got pop-up LinkedIn as well called Reportive.


    Oh, yeah. That's someone we talked about.

    So, the creepy thing, and we think it's really useful because it helps to kinda humanize, like we said, you don't run in to these people on the street anymore. So how do you like encourage basically what I call a humanize interaction support?

    You need to humanize both ends, right. So it's a customer who we understand who the customer is and we are looking at who they are on talking to someone at the company, not talking to the company, right. The company isn't a persona. The company isn't a person.

    Unless you're Romney.

    Yeah. And despite what the Supreme Court says, companies are not people, they're made up of people. So you want to kind of encourage conversation between people.

    We're not political in this podcast at all, Richard. That's fine. I will. But the creepiness comes at me. So, we really debated about, I've seen big data things like Raply puts stuff in the past, where they try to say, "Hey, target your influencers." Or these guys are on Facebook.

    You know where targeting your influencers works, and the only place it works?


    The Hunger Games. Every place it'll get you in trouble.

    But I think there's a role for social media in this type of big data. It helped us out.

    I think there's a huge role. And you said something when you're describing UserVoice that I think is so important for maybe the more traditional listeners of our show. The people who work in some organizations have massive support installations.

    And you said, supporting people that you might not ever see or hear and I think that's so important for people who are in more traditional support IT, support roles, I'll start getting very specific, to understand because there's more and more people work remotely, or don't ever come in to the office, what you described although it seems like a type of external support will look a lot like your internal help desk.

    And that's why I went to that conference, 'cause that was my hypothesis. My hypothesis is that companies talking to customers and companies talking to other people in the company is gonna start looking very similar. There's sorts of things you wanna do. I think a lot of the stuff that those kind of events currently focus is kind of this legacy of requirements.

    Oh we've got to do this process or requirements, and I feel like there's a shift, at least in the side of the business when we're focused on, the company customer, where everyone's got to throw away all their process, right?

    Yeah. 89 episodes, that took 89 episodes to get someone to say that.

    Well it's true, right, so what I say we sell is software, but what we really sell is a process, right. We sell a very simple process, it doesn't have a lot of SOAs and requirements and BPM. We don't have that. Because now it's kind of a different world, where your customers kind of define it. If 90% of your customers are calling you at 10 p.m. a night, or sending an e-mail then you need to make, it doesn't matter what your business hours are.

    It doesn't matter that your SOA's within it's Monday through Friday. That doesn't matter. And increasingly everything that's happening on the kind of consumer web is happening inside companies as well, right. Like the iPhone, remember a couple years ago, it's like we're not gonna support iPhones phones, you got to stick with the company BlackBerry.

    That lasted for like five minutes, right. And now everyone's got to support the BlackBerry. Because if I get a better experience talking to a random company on the web, that I do talk to my own IT department is like a roll. It's interesting doing this conference, I mean, it's potentially a place where, you know, we don't have a lot of this stuff that the remedies and the service now.

    A lot of these guys have great products for that market, too. We have a really simple product, right? Designed for kind of like more B to C companies where we're seeing more and more people - the reason I went to that conference, a bunch of people emailed us and said, "Oh this looks like it works great for ServiceDesk."

    And I'm like, "What's a ServiceDesk?"

    Be careful, yeah, because when I hear ServiceDesk I think Walmart and I'm returning diapers.

    Yeah! I don't know. Right, like yeah. It's always unclear for what these things are.

    Every time I heard Die Grips ServiceDesk was always the retail place where the non-cashiers worked, that was the service desk.

    That's right.

    And it was this ITIL thing that renamed help desk ServiceDesk.


    And you think about it too, big companies, when they talk about support. They're always considering it's kind of the post-sale, whether it's internal, business to business or it's out to the consumer themselves. It's always post-sale, right? But when you're talking about engaging the life cycle of a customer, it starts in marketing.


    Even in the vision stage, right? Who do you go chase? So this is the breakdown that happens in a large - like most of the people I've interacted with ITSMF and HDI. You hear them speak in those traditional support term realms, SOA you know, how do we control it? It's about command and control.


    And reality is the consumerization of IT, it's really the consumerization of the enterprise, because accounting, and sales, and legal are also facing the same change of the ecosystems that we're experiencing in IT. Which is that people want the level of consumer feedback and interaction that they get from their stuff at home or when they walk into a Apple store that they do walking into a big, you know, HR meeting or whatever. So it's that same mentality. People don't wanna lose that experience. They wanna bring that experience into that enterprise.

    And I think the good news for everyone is that these new kind of paradigms, these kind of customer-centric paradigm is actually much easier to do. My background is computer science. And so, in developing products, there used to be all these books about methodologies for how to develop products, right and how do you project-estimate and how to you earn down charts and is very complex.

    And now, almost all of that has fallen out of favor in terms of something called Agile, so you Agile Development. Agile Development means you just do as little process as humanly possible and we run our whole internal product development process on two free tools. We use Google Docs and we use this thing called Trello, which it looks like index cards on a board.

    And I think you'll see the same thing happen to other parts of the business, right? There isn't as much of a breakdown between sales and support, or what's pre-sales or post-sales. Who knows, right? It's just gonna fall down to, this is customer communication. When someone emails us or contacts us, this is how we handle it.

    You empower the people in the front lines to make smart decisions. You build only enough process handle kinda the really extreme cases. And so, we wouldn't be entering into this if is wasn't easy.

    When I read Eric Rees' book. I actually mention that on this podcast that if those proponents of iTalk take one night to go, to read Erik Rees' book and understand that this is a scientific methodology and that it does have control and it's not just willy-nilly, they would embrace it. It speaks to I think they're in a passion of having predictability.

    But they don't see this as being predictable. They think it's just loosey-goosey, just throw it out there and see what happens. And that's not exactly not all what's being preached. It is, you know, let your customer drive your next set of rations but put it out there to a certain point and then pivot only when you've actually proven to show what your strengths are.


    You're not a boat flopping in the breeze, you're just changing course based on changing tides.


    And that's why I think that's something that just continues to fundamentally be lost with folks in this industry.

    Getting better. I remember talking to some people. Sebachao, is like they build, they provide really high tech software. And their whole support methodology was, they called it, literally, Agile Support, right? And they said everytime something comes into support we treat it as if we were doing engineering and we have to have an outcome on everything that comes in, right, maybe it is that we create a new knowledge based article, maybe it is that we go in and fix that bug, but we don't just kind of respond, right?

    We actually turn into something actual in every single interaction we have, which I thought that was interesting.


    I mean the closest we get to that is the people that talk about adaptive case management. So let me understand this. As things change, I change my behavior. Yeah, it's like good monkey. Yeah, good robot. Yeah. That's nice. I don't know how we're gonna make it through this? Richard, we've got to let you go 'cause you got a hard stop coming up.

    That's true.

    I could keep you forever like the small white dove kitten.

    Can I just read Richard's tagline on his About page for UserVoice?


    It says Richard Weiss, co-founder and CEO of UserVoice, where he focuses on making sexy products for unsexy markets, like customer service.


    He's got a couple good quotes in here. This is gonna be the quote show, I can tell already. Richard, I tried to get Mikkel to come on once but they sent Zack Urlocker instead. Zack's a lovely man but I really wanted Mikkel, but I wanna thank you for representing 'cause I think you tow it up.

    No problem. Thanks for having me.

    Check out the UserVoice and put a link in the show notes, all that kind of stuff. Check out Richard. I actually started following him on Twitter and I don't follow anybody, because I'm a snob like that. But dude, his stuff is solid and he even mixes in some political stuff, so that makes him real, not like fake and marketing like.

    Much to the chagrin, sometimes people are investors, but we'll deal with that.

    Yeah, yeah. Kill amendment one.

    You know a dude's transparent when he tells you that he sold his baby, his start-up on eBay. You know the dude's transparent. And he put the price in there. That's like the epitome of transparency. Great job.

    Yeah, he was pretty cool.

    I tried to get him on the show last year. I'm sure I can talk about it again. I tried to get him on the show last night but I couldn't figure, and now I, it's all good, we did it, this is good. We'll see everybody in 10 days. Between now and then we've got the service now knowledge conference. And we have cash register sound coming up and we've got a lot of news to catch up on. ITSMF has a conference coming up and all that other good stuff.

    Thanks so much and we'll catch everybody in 10 days.

    Thanks everybody.

    This was ITSM Weekly. Thank you for listening. For more information about this podcast and ITSM News, go to ITSMWeekly.com.

    # vimeo.com/42492602 Uploaded
  5. Craig Wilkey joins the Hooper and Beran to talk all things IT Services. You just have to make it through the first 20 minutes of chris's antics.

    ITSM Weekly The Podcast bringing you news, insight, analysis and information from the the world of IT Service Management. Your host, Matthew Cooper, Chris Dancy and Matt Beran. IT Service Management Weekly The Podcast starts now.

    Welcome to ITSM Weekly The Podcast for the week ending April 27th. News gator, that open, that spirit, Frank Wilke.

    Oh, you're gonna burst a bubble.

    I don't think I've ever seen you turn that shirt to red dress.

    We don't have any real news. Can we get a newspaper sound?

    How about a news purr?

    How about crickets?

    Can we get crickets? And just to spite them, give us some news poodles. You do this in the other shows right? They all have those sounds.


    I guess before you guys get started, 'cause I can spend five minutes from you. Have you been watching the Twitter string?

    A little bit.

    Not today.

    Of course not you have a tool that curates it for you why would you

    pay attention.


    It obviously wasn't important enough.

    Never is.

    I'm high profile.

    Does Mrs. Hooper, call the phone?

    She has to text.

    I texted you and you didn't call me back for three hours.

    Yeah, I got you in a different life mode.

    Isn't that a phony? Yeah. Yeah. What life mode do you have being Dancy's puppet.

    I don't know.


    I don't have a life mode.

    So yeah. A couple interesting things. Stephen Mann has single handedly turned into the PR department for every conference ever given. I mean all he's doing is repeating stuff from vendors for a sits.

    Yeah. The Forrester stuff that was coming out there was fantastic.

    From out of what?

    Out of. Not the SDITS or however you said it. The other one that they were at yesterday.

    Wilkey, do you watch the stuff? Do you follow the Steven Mann?

    I follow him but I haven't really been paying attention to the stream. I'm on vacation. I just look for mentions.

    Dude I just realized it's 4.20 you got sunglasses on, you you're inside, what's up with that?

    I wish, I got no contacts out here. Do you have any?

    Contacts? No.

    Don't ask Hooper if he's got marijuana while he's recording a podcast that's gonna be on the internet. Mrs. Hooper that's the strike number four. I think for her ever listening to the show.

    Yeah. Well, actually, that wasn't a bad one 'cause I had no idea what he was talking about.

    So that actually goes in my favor.

    So, Hoop, I have to ask with that plunging neckline and the gorilla crawling out of your shirt. How does that work?

    It's called being a man.

    I wouldn't know much about that.

    It's beautiful here. Actually, my short-sleeves which is almost never happens.

    Ah, and you go to that gym. I see you check-in all that old. So yeah Steven Mann's tweets are kind of hot. He's really the analyst of analysts. The only thing is, did you guys see? You didn't, but here's this really cool app or application I saw today called OneDesk. And it takes engagement management, feedback, customer service, project development, support cast and social media monitoring and puts it in one tool.

    What's it called again?

    OneDesk. That being said it is the interface is junky looking, but you know you can skin anything, ask Michael Meyers.

    Interface is continued, and we talked about this before, continued to be overrated. If it doesn't have the functionality and the power, everyone talks about, "Oh, it's gotta have this sexy UI.

    It's gotta be delightful." Give me a break. If it doesn't scale and it doesn't work functionality I don't care how anything looks.

    First off, Mrs. Hooper might scale, but she's damn sexy, so I know you can.

    She's here for me.

    Hey, when it comes to selling, you got to have both.

    Yeah. Even when I think about Matt's wife, she's hot.

    Oh yeah, quite.

    Yeah you should see my wife. All right. So, back to what we were saying. So yeah, to the UI point, what's his name, who's the guy from New Zealand who's always complaining. The IT skeptic. I couldn't think of his name out, I just go ahead and type descriptors.

    I love how everybody has a beer but me. See, he tweeted today that since he started the update on his site, it's made no difference in his bounce rate. So content is still king.

    Well, yeah. I don't follow him on Twitter either so content is still king.

    So again, I don't follow, I don't check out Skep’s site because I get everything to RSS feeds. I get all of the stuff plugged into me so I don't know what this new site looks like.

    I think I will check it out.

    I mean it's nice.

    It is.

    I mean I kind of wanted to tell them it made a difference to me because it's easier on the eyes.

    Because you're shallow and superficial. And you only care about looks.

    Oh burn.

    Speaking of shallow and superficial I don't but because I'm getting ready to go to London I just have my nose waxed.

    Oh yeah?

    My face was my nasolabial has been methodically eradicated. I didn't want to admit I was getting a waxing.

    Is it painful?

    No. It's really weird because they wax all hair in your nose at one time, so they put a popsicle stick up in your nose, and then I let it dry, so it becomes like one of those freeze pops, and then as soon as the wax is hard and it's dry, they just yank.

    I'll put a link in those show notes. I actually have a video on YouTube of me getting it done.

    So what ITSM process is that, Chris?

    That would be change and release management. And the person most familiar with that process would be Chaz Bono.

    Decommission. That's part of decommission and recycling, right?

    Asset management.

    Look at you go, Beran.

    Isn't it?

    That's like the last step, you get rid of the server, and yank it out of the rack, so to speak. And then I don't know, did you send it to a recycling center, Chris? Like a hair implant or?

    I didn't send my nose hair anywhere, Matt, alright? This is now the time that I have to go. You wait until I have to hang up to pick on me.

    It's perfect timing. It's perfect.

    It's because I love you, Chris.

    We were actually going to talk about ITSM in this episode, so it's actually good that you're leaving.

    Go ahead, start.

    Do what you have to.

    You guys got a very nice compliment from Riitta Raesmaa today that we're her favorite pick-me-up.

    Oh she made my day.

    Same here.

    You guys I think in some ways you guys don't get to experience the love like I do. Because when I'm traveling, we just have people all over the place who, I don't know, they're definitely not interested in ITSM. But technically, listen.

    She must not be. Now, she is fantastic and the reason that I think she called us out anyway is I called her out as fantastic.

    Yesterday I checked into Twitter for like, I only had about 10 minutes yesterday 'cause the kids were going crazy, I got a sick daughter, whatever. And I checked in for like 10 minutes, the first 12 tweets that and I saw her all got favorited. They all had quality content. It was insane. Her specifically was using social media for onboarding. I'll put the link on the show notes.

    But it's a really good perspective on not only, it's not the same old, you've got to use LinkedIn to apply to jobs BS. It's how to continue on beyond hiring people and what needs to happen socially in an enterprise beyond the hire. Like, give them a platform to voice their opinions while they're there.

    It's the start-up stuff. As soon as you're at a company, those first three minutes that you're there, the time you're the most productive and most valuable.

    Until you corrupted.

    That's right.

    What specifically was she talking about when you use social media for on-boarding? Like that's how you get them on to social media and make sure they're engaged. Was it more about Yammer and more about the social media?

    I have a feeling he only read the three and just pretended he understood the law now.

    Come on now, Chris. You know me better than that.

    I do. Are you medicated ?

    Well, I guess technically yes. It's a pale ill.

    If you drink that can you hear the bounce in that ball will your head pop?

    Been there, done that.

    It's possible. No what they're talking about is, you know, everyone's talking about how to connect with people and connect with new candidates on social media. And everyone talks about how that the Facebook password username thing that companies want and that their spying on you like on Twitter and Facebook to see if you're, you know wanking off during work and not actually doing work.

    I used to.

    When we talked about that on two episodes. Matt brought it up. That was Hoopers news. And it was then and still is a myth. In any case, what it talks about is from not just to do it from then but to continue on. Like, if your HR is doing that, you know, at least if you're gonna use it to accept the candidate you need to continue to follow through.

    Because if you hire them based on their social media. There's gonna be quality content there for your employees. And making sure that they know that that content is there is key.

    I think it's also important to have that connection there in an increasingly virtual world. You're not working with your coworkers in the same building, shaking hands with each other, getting them actively engaging in the social media within the organization is a way for them to really connect with their co-workers and be accepted into the community.

    Which makes me wonder why I should have just released the blog that I'm afraid to release, because I know everybody will, but why don't we have social profiles in the enterprise? Why can't I click on, you know, something in active directory and read all about my Matt Hooper, what he's into, the last tickets he raised, the last questions he answered, the last knowledge he did, the last two offices he was at. Why can't I see that in the enterprise?

    Yeah. I think it applies even more at a sourcing firm, whether it be consulting or just flat-out outsourcing, if a client wants to see the value of the consultants check out their social stream. Like, if I'm gonna contract with Forrester, I'm gonna check out Stephen Mann, I'm gonna be impressed, and then I'm going to buy it.

    If I'm checking out Tata Consulting. I'm gonna look at @jimbofin, and then I'm going to realize that I'm paying for IT consulting and I'm getting puppy consulting.

    If you're paying for Tata Consulting, you check out @jimbofin, you're going to realize he likes Blip Photo.



    Blip Photo.

    Sorry you would actually have to be on Twitter, Hooper.

    Twitter is a waste of time.

    That's how I met you. That's how I met you.

    Same here.

    Let that sink in. Just let that sink in Hooper.

    Okay. Just read my tweets from today. I tweet plenty.

    Yeah. You need a PHP developer in Boston. Everyone in the world knows it.

    Thank you. You know PHP?

    I still haven't hired one yet, so it's not working for me.

    I'm familiar with Python and I have references. Okay. So, yeah, the social thing for onboarding, I don't know. The most valuable thing I get out of LinkedIn is clicking on who viewed my profile.

    And I have never done that, not even once.


    Yeah, I've never done it. Linking or not, you just hover over the link and click.

    It's on the front page!

    Never tried it.

    Hooper? Oh, I know you do.

    All the time. Yeah. I'll do it right now.


    Yeah, I don't pay for it though, so I get limited information.

    Alright so everybody let's bring up our LinkedIn and look at our last 5 people who looked at our profiles.

    What's it called?

    Just go to linkedin.com.

    It's on the very front page.

    Who's viewed your profile?

    So I've got Rory Dar, DAR. He's a consultant at an IT and staffing company in England. An anonymous user. A director at Salesforce.com. Well, that's good. And Sarah Kellerman from Penn State University.

    And I've got two people from my own company.

    That's scary.

    Another one from the company that tried to hire me. It's a local Microsoft shop. And then, a teacher that used to be in HDI. Yeah, I remember him.

    So I have an anonymous LinkedIn user, someone in University Catholic De La Questa.

    You are a little Latin devil, you.

    I have someone from Diversified Search.

    Well, that's good. An account manager at PC Connection.


    And then John Kennedy, a search adviser. See I've been posting a lot of stuff about recruitment because recruiters actually like SMAK and we've been getting site.

    You found your niche.

    Yeah, a lot of recruiters, people in the executive retain search space.

    That and public relations people. So I've been going on putting stuff out there, so it makes sense that they would click on my site. Let's see. Mark Zuckerberg, Reid Hoffman.

    What do you got, Wilke?

    Stop stalking me. Stop stalking me
    . I have things to do.

    I had Mark on the phone earlier and I just had to hang up on him.


    He was all bent out of shape about Instagram and it's just a hot mess right now.

    I don't know any of these people. Somebody who sent me a message asked me if I can find them a job at Citi (Citibank).

    You'd get a lot of those. I would think that everybody wants to work for the evil corporate giants.

    I've gotten two, that's it.

    Can I work at City? Now you've gotten three.

    There you go. Send me a message out loud right now.

    I wouldn't last a day at Citi. I'm barely skipping along at this little company I work at now. You work at ServiceNow.

    I can't say that.

    I wasn't sure if you forgot where you worked.

    No, but I do get constantly reminded that, the other day, someone said to me, "Can you please stop introducing yourself, when someone asks you, what you do. We don't like it when you say, can't you Google me? It makes you sound arrogant."

    I don't think it makes you sound arrogant. It makes you sound like you're telling the truth.

    No, I actually started doing it a long time ago as a joke and I kind of get what they mean. I mean, if I'm just meeting someone, yeah, it's hard to take all of me in in just a second your head would explode. So, if that's my lead-in, you know, it can be weird. Once you know me for like 10 minutes, stay away.

    Wasn't there like 700 IOS apps that were supposed to take care of that so we could just like punch each other and then we'd know everything about each other.

    Yeah, or like the Evernote thing.

    Oh, Evernote Faces, or something.

    Yeah. No Evernote Hello.

    You see Evernote got a 100 millon of funding yesterday with a capital of one billion now.

    You got to kidding me.

    No yesterday.

    They're gonna need it, because I'm never gonna pay for it.

    This bubble better pay off for me.

    Dude, I always wonder, but I'm actually more sure than ever, you're gonna get off.

    We'll see.

    Even if the podcast has to buy you to get you to start participating with us again

    Is that part of your strategy, Hooper, is that the end goal actually, to get purchased?

    I don't know, you know, its not why I'm building it this is a problem that I've had of not being able to be responsive to people. And slowly but surely I'm becoming more responsive in getting my life back under control. So at the end of the day, that's why I built this thing.

    I've got to go. I've got a flight to catch to London, and then I've got to go to Orlando.

    Chris, thanks for joining us today.

    Hey, it's always great to drop in to this little thing. Wilke.

    It's been a pleasure having you on.

    Shut up, you freak, now I'm all embarrassed. Wilke, take over for me. Alright, love you guys.

    See you.

    Safe travels.

    Safe trip. So we can actually now talk about ITSM.

    You have to be careful now. You know he's gonna watch this.

    He'll actually learn something.

    Oh, crap! That's what ITSM stands for.

    I still don't know.

    So the SM is not social media.

    Yeah, that's terrible. We're terrible people. It looks terrible. I wish it was nice enough here that I could be wearing a shirt that shows off my chest, but it just sucks.

    It's beautiful outside. All week it’s been great.

    It is fantastic here in Boston.

    Hey, you don't pay rent or anything, do you? You don't have to lease anything.

    I'm paying right now because we weren't one of the winners of last year. The winners last year got free rent. But we just did reapply. So go to MassChallenge.org and vote for Smack. And hopefully we'll get in again this year. Yeah, 'cause we haven't taken financing yet. Any companies who've taken over half a million dollars can't apply.

    I wouldn't have to either.

    A half million doesn't go very far. Well no it would just back fill your credit card at this point. He's laughing so it's probably true.

    Yes. Once again, good thing my wife does not listen on this podcast.

    That's awesome. So for our guests today, I asked Beran, I said, I want to do a show where we can kind of get down to some real ITSM stuff.

    You know, we plug it in here and there on the show but offline we've had some fantastic conversations and you know, we get into some of the nitty gritty and some of the dirty work. And so, I really wanted to get back to some of the grassroots stuff of ITSM, kind of in the #back2ITSM Facebook launch theme, I guess.

    So one of the things that I wanted to talk about today, Beran with you. Because you are the man, is on, in and around a service desk. We are always concerned about how we have work flow. And so, as I think about the projects I've done around service desks and then actually doing a little bit of consulting right now for a company helping them get a service desk in place.

    Just so I can feed the kids. It's a part time gig, but it's they're pretty savvy and they're very technical so mostly just hand-holding around the process stuff. Right out of the gate they wanted the self-service component of a service desk and handling work flow through the self service portal is always a challenge for people, 'cause you need a starting point.

    What I've noticed is that immediately they went to the more traditional IT mindset of, "Okay, people are going to come here looking for IT stuff", and the reality is, you know, my experience goes back, with service catalogs, to 2005, 2006, when I started working with PMG which is an independent service catalog, one of the few.

    NewScale is probably the other. I don't know. Is NewScale still around today?

    Yeah, NewScale still around.

    Still independent.

    Much bigger.

    So, you know, the service catalog always from those two companies had always been something more than just IT stuff, right? IT services, it wasn't mail servers, desktop provisioning, it always was I have this business, application of business service I need, or, you know, take HR, HR was part of the Six Catalog.

    You go click on HR, there are many HR service issue you could drill into. You could go into onboarding.


    Click on onboarding and maybe there was different types of onboarding services for the different people. So for instance you talked about the social media integration, well maybe for some people we in the on-boarding process we do need to set up an Yammer account and let them have access to Facebook and Twitter because, you know, for their role and for their value proposition they will bring value to business by having access to those services, but for some, maybe someone who's in a call center, it would become a distractive service.

    Maybe call center is a bad example because I don't fundamentally believe that. But let's say that for instance, you would have two different services you could ask for. A role based service provisioning, right? So, when I look at it from my standpoint on how we want the service catalog to allow for self provisioning, it has to be driven and geared towards your user.

    You have to think your user and how they operate. So I'd love to get you guys' thoughts on that and what you've seen and maybe kind of examples of mistakes that you've seen and some examples of some good things that you've seen in getting the work flow particularly around self-service and the service catalog.

    So the number one mistake is trying to boil the ocean, day one; not putting out your catalog when it's got one valuable item in it.


    As soon as one valuable item in there. Open it up.


    And that goes back to that crazy idea that you start with continual service improvement and IT process that as soon as you've got something good you might as well run with it and then continually improve it. And go through iterations. It's agile. It's strong. As soon as you get one item there then the next one should be easily get out and if you're really smart your first item in your service catalog is gonna be I wanna add something to your service catalog.

    Yeah, brilliant, and I was gonna ask what you think should be the first thing to go into your service catalog.


    We used a template -- well, I use the template -- because it's based on servicenow. Cha-ching! Yeah. It's basically based on the form and questions that you need to know when you're putting in something into a catalog, which includes things like work flow, approval, task assignments and then, well I guess that's workflow.

    And then notifications. Like, what sort of emails, or text messages, or notices are we gonna give people?

    So your reason for putting the first thing in there, how do I add something to your service catalog, is to almost let your customers, in this case, or business partners drive what's most valuable.

    Let them dictate what should be there.

    Exactly, yeah. Think, you know, the tongue in cheek metaphor that people always used for service catalog is make it like Amazon, make it so simple to use that anyone can use it, and it's got everything that you need. But I think Amazon, day one, was probably. We don't really know what people are looking for.

    So in this big search box up at the top, if someone is typing in coffeemakers, and we see that typed in 10,000 times. Perhaps we should sell coffee makers.

    Genius. Yeah. Couldn't you get some of that data from your ticket system today? Ticket system or your business. I mean that kind of goes back to designing with the user in mind getting your business users in the same room as you.

    Start with the org chart.

    Start with the org chart, exactly.

    So, start with org chart in what way? Are we gonna focus on squeaky wheels? Are we gonna look for people who are the most frequent requesters of service from.

    Well, not just to spell out the services based on like we were talking about earlier, the services should be based on your job requirements, based on what you do for a living. So like if you're a bank teller. And every teller in your bank needs these things, seven, eight, nine things. Make that one service. Make it the core teller service and that will be in your catalog.

    So you start with your org chart because the people in that department often have very similar roles versus the jobs they do. They'll use the same core set of tools. So if you actually hear on here and there, sides, but you can start your core base with the org chart in your organizations, depending on how it's built.

    That's kind of the same thing as entitlements. And it's role-based because what you give someone for a computer is probably based on what role they are in the organization. Shouldn't your service catalog and services be based on that as well?

    Yeah, so Craig and I were talking. I was sharing with him that the work I'm doing right now is for a pharmaceutical company.

    And the reality is some of the higher priced personnel in that company are the one's who work in the lab and research department, and they don't need to see the IT services of data center management and infrastructure security and disaster recovery, preparedness, and storage management, right?


    They need to see lab informatics, research informatics, they need to see, you know, regulatory, they need to see project management, clinical operations, those kind of, you know, business focus services.

    Of course, they need facilities, they need HR services, they may need some corporate services, but probably not too many, and then the end user services. Everybody needs end user services. Such as desktops, or personal communication and requesting issues kind of stuff. By segmenting those services into the catalog, what you're doing is you're isolating the list of options.

    And if we go back to the retail science that has told us is the less options you present to somebody, the higher frequency in which they will buy so stores have learned by having too many SKU's on the shelf they actually confuse their users who get into analysis paralysis and actually sometimes walk away.

    As opposed to if you just had Oreos and a, you know - we have Stop 'n' Shop here - Stop 'n' Shop brand Oreos, you would sell one of the other, as opposed to fifteen different flavors of cookies; and I think that's a problem -- you know, where your point about boiling the ocean is spot-on if you try to present too many options, we're gonna confuse people.

    Whereas if you give them a clear path on where they need to go and why they're there, I think that's important. It reminds me of a podcast that was put out by this company called Marketing Experiments or Marketing Research I'll put the show notes together for that. They talked about this thing called the seven second rule.

    Basically, when you hit a webpage you have seven seconds to tell somebody why they're there, what they need to know, and where they need to go. And if you don't do that within seven seconds, you basically have lost that person. Your conversion rate and your caught action will become irrelevant. And all these different case examples of too many things to click on a web page, which is where you'd notice the really effective landing sites on websites from a marketing perspective.

    They have one call to action, which is sign up, call now, you know, whatever. And you look at - most service catalogs that I've seen don't have that at all, they're completely backwards, not that I think of it. You know, they have way too many menus and sub-menus presented at the first layer, as opposed to the more iconic four options, clicks to another four options, clicks to another.

    Three or four services to actually pick through and flavor selection or whatever.

    Give me a handful of links in the search box.

    Yeah. I'm not gonna say their name again, I promise. But the self-service portal that we end up rolling out over a lot of companies basically has three boxes. Something's broken, I want something, or I need to know something.

    You basically get to choose, sure there are links underneath those if you know exactly what you need, if you know the most the ones trickle up to the top, and you can see what they are, and you can click right on that laptop that you want to order, but if you can have some sort of engine to drive consumers to what they want similar to like - if I say Amazon again I better be paid by them- but similar to them where they're suggesting what you want or asking you questions to get to what you want.

    So, the "know something" piece of it; I get the issue, I have an issue or I have a request, but the "know something", that's different than a knowledge base, right? Are you talking about, like this is a real-time update that you need to know, like, we're changing the system, or we're going to have a new feature out tomorrow, is that kind of know something that your talking about, or are you talking about look up past issues or things like that?

    Well, I would argue that the first two things that you listed should be in your knowledge base.


    So, if I need relevant information, it should be in your knowledge base. So, if you need relevant information, it should be in your knowledge base whether in your organization, whether the knowledge base is adopted, the company wide or not, that scope, I can't really speak to that.

    I think that's a pipe dream. You say that everyone in the company would use the knowledge base. That is the point, so if there's an outage, your incident system, or your major incidents at least, should have some ability to publish knowledge articles so that people can see that in the knowledge base and say, "Look, the next three days I'm not going to be able to log into the RP system because they're doing emergency maintenance because, I don't know, Dan dropped a Diet Coke on the server, or something."

    Yeah. So, I think it does point to the knowledge base the one that we usually end up building, whether the release, you know, service transition stuff is in there or this new release is coming down the pipe or these are the new features that we're gonna put in, whether you put in that or not is kind of up to your, apt of release structure, whether you're rolling with release or not even some of the big corporations that we do implementations for don't go live, what's release management until like phase two or phase three. So sometimes that's a little wonky.

    So, I don't know if schedule of change is still used a term used in Idle. I know version 2 had called it for schedule changes, version 3 called it schedule change. The concept, the reality of that is completely is it's impractical because change happens across the organization at different layers, it's impossible to have that overlap clearly articulated, at least in large organizations, right?

    So I guess the question becomes, is you know, is this from a knowledge management standpoint and from a workflow standpoint, is this something that needs to be built in at a higher level so that our changes will feed knowledge management and issue and request heads up type data, because we already know most things break because you change them, you know, Smack runs really good until we release a new feature, and then it falls apart!

    And I think that happens with most systems I've had experience with. That's why back in the day in the retail business we would lock things down from and one of the systems actually work.

    Well, but who is your audience? I mean do you want the business users to see when you're doing on retail, act on a server, or upgrading something else?

    They don't really need to see all of that. That's just a lot of noise for that.

    So I don't know that they need to know but it's a DTM patch, because I really don't know what a DTM patch it, but I think. Okay. But I think that as a business consumer, I would want to have a heads up that our system may be at risk or it may be more fragile at this particular point in time, because that will help me for my business planning perspective if I'm going to bring on 20 new salespeople and I'm gonna get them, you know, launched and loaded on the system, you know, January 15th and you're gonna be doing a big release, you know, January 10th and there may be some challenges with that.

    You know, I could change my strategy, I could say "Okay, well let's get these people on the system on the fifth. Let's get them in before the big release, so let's them on at the 20th or 25th."


    Big releases, but I mean, big city like we have, I don't know, 85,000 changes a month. You don't wanna relate to that.

    No, we don't want to relate to it. And I think that becomes part of your core relation on where this, you know, configuration management system comes into play, as it actually helps to identify where change is irrelevant, right? But based on your role, who you are, you have to look üp the changes you do see.

    Sure, every change has an order of magnitude in which you have to equate to. Again, from a self-service provision, some of that goes back to who I am as a user. You know, maybe in my self-service catalog, I am clicking on to ask for a new request or a new provision or report an issue, I'm getting a level of detail that may change depending on who I am if I'm a manager, maybe I am seeing some of them. And it could be summarized date for sure, and it should be, right?

    Of course.

    But maybe as a particular end user, I don't need to worry about those things. So one of the challenges we've seen specifically with changes that a lot of people just don't understand what the change is about because they don't don't speak that language. So, the way we write our change it's Spanish. It's more the implementer.

    Different language. It's for the implementer to read and use.


    So, the end users have no idea what the software does. So, you know, the ones that have access to it, they complain, "Well, what am I gonna do with this anyways?"

    Right, right. Showing someone information or data that they don't understand, there's always that.

    So then, do you train your techs to write two different change records, or do you have, here's the english field that we're gonna give to the user, and here's the implementer.

    That's the
    10,000 dollar question, if you can come up with a tool that just a babble fish that just translates tech speak.


    You'd make gobs of money doing that. Our process that we end up usually using, it involves someone that is customer facing, someone who's doing customer service all the time, that's composing those messages and if you're not planning well enough, or your changes are not planning far enough in the future to get that out, SOL.

    Shouldn't RFCs, though, always incorporate a business case?


    I mean, shouldn't a Request for Change have a business driver associated with it? Even if it is a vulnerability impact change. Shouldn't there be at least some level, one sentence that says 'cause we're protecting business services XYZ, or something.

    Yeah, that should, but, you know, communism is ideal in theory.

    Until I'm working twice as hard as you.

    I'm keeping sane, yeah.

    Well. So, again, I think this comes back to - I was just talking to one of our partners today about this, she works in sales and marketing she was the general management and partner of the organization for this software company and her issue was, is that too many times, people communicate ineffectively to what they perceived as a customer.

    She has technical integration partners. Then she's got business integration partners. The business integration partners have a brand that her clients already know, but the technical integration partners are behind the scenes. And so she's the brand to the clients. And clients may complain, but they never really report that back to the technical integration partner?

    And so she was using this term "customer", and she was using it in three different aspects, and we've talked about this in the podcast before. I hate that term customer when you are internal to a company, because you very quickly lose sight of who the real customer is, and what that translates. And then, at the end of the day, if you are trying to think about the consumer of the service, and what their role and function is, if you put this blanket statement of customer on top of it, it's very confusing. Right?

    Like one of the best speakers I ever saw was a VP at CVS and he was speaking about customer, and every time he said customer he was talking about someone who walks into one of the CVS stores and buys drugs or buys chocolate or buys. You know.

    Goes in the back alley to buy the drugs.

    Knows user. So, you knew exactly what he meant by customer and then every time he talked about partner he was talking about the internal business.

    So, as he went in, and he was kind of running the network team. This wasn't someone who was interfacing with the actual consumers or pharmaceuticals or a convenient store type products. He was talking about people who would utilize network provisioning or phone services or things like that. So it made a clear indication to the listener of what context this person might be interacting with his ultimate service right, because a way that a customer is affected--when he says that if my network is down, the customer's affected--you immediately say to yourself, "Oh the person couldn't get their prescription and might die." I didn't go, "Oh, someone might not be able to run a report."

    Or get their e-mails.

    Right. To get their e-mail. Exactly. So it's just, you know, you're put into complete clarity of who you're talking about. And I think, as we try to build workflow and as we look at service provisioning, if we don't understand you know, who the service consumers are, who the service suppliers are, and what role and how to facilitate that, it continues to get confusing, you know.

    And as much as we've talked about it and as much as we yelled at it at different conferences, it's still verbiage that is misapplied and misused. I am at a loss as to why.

    One of the customers that we're working with actually does this quite well. and they have to because they're sourcing parts for an automobile manufacturer.

    And so when they have an outage, they need to know which manufacturers actually impact it, because they're gonna see it from a contract standpoint. You're probably used to this from your inforonics days. But, like that line of business, and that stakeholder mapping, it's key, to being able to number one charge for your services, and number two being punished for not providing them as you promised.


    Which kind of goes back to the two things that I would start with, that's not self service portal which should be starting with service lover management and your configuration managements processes tools.

    So what. When you say service level management. Obviously the service portfolio and your service catalog are to get self-service portal, but the service catalog in general, you know, which services are within scope of our operations and that we are going to bring under management, right?

    I've always said that that needs to be defined before we start down the configuration management path. Because as we've all learned, configuration management has two aspects. Scope and level detail. And if we're going to haphazardly say scope is a network segment or scope is a range of asset devices, like we're gonna bring in all the network servers or bring in all the network hardware, you know, we'll fundamentally the point of what a service correlation or service management or service model is and why it matters. So do you feel the same way that a service level management we need to, 'cause you can't fully break in service level management.

    I mean that never happens. That never ends.

    That's too complex, yeah.

    So create your service catalog, your service portfolio: what's in, what's out, what's coming, and then jump in to config manage and say, "Okay what assets support those services?"

    Yeah, think about it from the SMAK perspective. When you started up Smack you were like, "Alright what are we going to provide?

    What does that look like?" Tell me the story of what services we're going to deliver to customers. And then you hired a CTL and what you asked him was "Okay, now how are we going to deliver that? What does that service model look like?"

    Yeah, I mean we created a service model that said here's our messaging services, here's our contact services. Here's our adapter services. And then we have API services, and that's very techy, but we're a software company. API services or what services we provide to external integration partners. But every one of those services we did as we then mapped out. Okay, what code configuration sits against those services are environments virtual and it's in the cloud, so we really only have two tiers.

    We have EC 2 and we have RES, so, you know, our operating environment's cloud-based and our database environment is cloud based. So, it makes it really easy but what we do for every change that we put out is that each change goes into Get Hub with a feature request. We then map that Get Hub change to the code that's being changed.

    And every release that has a set of configuration files mapped to that. So I know what service is being impact, what feature improvement is happening, and then what technical code, 'cause usually a few PHP pages or an INI file or something is being impacted. And most of the tech stuff doesn't make any sense to me anymore but I really only care about features and as they work out.

    But interestingly enough, there's still a challenge. I have the challenge now in and continue to have it, then I will ask the dev team, "Okay, this new feature is providing me what data and they will go on a diatribe of all this technical query stuff that happens. What I really wanted to know is, am I looking at LinkedIn, am I looking at Twitter, am I looking at email like what is the source of this data and why do I care.

    So, in IT I think we always tend to go back to the architecture instead of the business driver, and I can see why it happens, it's just what we're more comfortable with and it's what we've designed and what we've built and it's how we think about the source of that data coming to you but it's not about the timeliness of that data, the integrity of that data and the value of that data can get lost in translation very quickly.

    Well, I think because our values are probably different too within the business and IT, so like for example it may not cost very much money to patch a Windows server, and the business may be okay with us patching the business server, but really, we're just doing it because we don't want it to start on fire next week.

    It's almost like we've got this crystal ball that says "your employees, your co-workers". They've got this crystal ball that says, "Look, if we change this feature or do this release in the future, we might be able to do this." And they've got this future state in mind as well that they can't really quantify or communicate well.

    So, you're saying business class for IT?


    You should know how to qualify those things, you might understand them.


    And that's the biggest problem I still have and mostly people I know in IT, have, until they get up to the VP scene -- VP level -- is that they can't put numbers to these things, they can't explain why they're doing them. They know why but they can't put it in business terms.


    I think we tend to underestimate the value of what we're doing.

    We'll say things as clearly as we need to do it. I know I'm challenged with this continually, and I have been as an IT person. People have asked, what is your strategy? And we immediately think that we need some kind of extremely robust strategy, when simply, the business wants to know my strategy is to put out some hardware here, and then if that fails, I'm going to have some hardware over here that is going to be turned on.

    And that's really all the business wanted to know. But then we have to go into this, "Well what we're going to do, we're going to do a business continuity strategy that's going to incorporate all of our business metrics and analytically determine which of our critical services are needed, so that we can have KPIs and CSFs and really determine", it's like who cares?


    That's what I'm asking. You know we just make things overly-complex a lot and it's on our judgment I think a lot of time.

    I put a 15-second video on Vimeo. It was about that exact thing. IT has managed itself out of a job, because the new app providers, the new IOS apps, the new everything can do that 10 times faster, 10 times cheaper.

    Did you see the story of, you know, we talk about the show, I mean, the news for the show today, CIO.com has this thing on their home page, "Are zombies sucking the life out of your data center?" It says if your organization operates its own services and switches is likely the percentage of that are zombies.

    Doubling up the resources are doing no work. Cleaning up the zombie server at the station takes good management and stringent documentation.

    That's on the CIO page?

    No, this is on the cover of CIO.com.

    Should CIO's have to worry about that? I don't think so, that's an operational thing.

    I don't know.

    That's insane. How do I uninstall an app from my iPhone? Click and hold, and click the X and be away with it. I wish that existed for enterprise applications. If I had a dime for every time I saw an enterprise application that no one was using but we couldn't justify getting rid of for some reason.

    What's the street in New York they would call, there's Wall Street, and then there's the other one.

    Skid Row?

    Skid Row. Yeah, so one of our clients are vigilant. We had a project that was basically this Skid Row project. There was all these servers that were running, turned on you know, eating up electricity, network, bandwidth.


    Everything, but they didn't know what they were into, what they were supporting so they didn't want to turn them off.

    Switch it off and listen to the shouts. That one's good. Next!

    You joke, but I've seen that in people's strategy for decommissioning specifically for outsourcers because they really don't understand what the business impact is. Especially if the IT internal IT can't communicate it to the external source. I've seen it. When we're decommissioning a server, turn it off, wait four days then you can wipe it.

    Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I'd say we'd do the worse than the living.

    Quarter, I mean you almost have to wait a year, or seven years to accounting purposes.

    Yeah, that one report, that bill runs once a month.

    You turn off the servers the day after you run it.

    Yeah, monthly reporting runs at the end of the month. I mean, how could you wait four days? That's crazy.

    Well, but the thing is is that they shouldn't even have to do that. They should know it before they even hit that power switch, before they even log into it to turn it off.

    Yeah, absolutely.

    Transparency is king.

    And you know it really is not that hard to be honest with you, the way we solved it with Skid Row is we simply took a, we used a product from Compuware called Application Vantage, which is like a network sniffer, but what it actually tells you is your conversation map of more critical applications.

    It's how your SQL, web, Java web sphere, any kind of real application, not just general network traffic? Do you have backup servers and anti-virus on those things running against those boxes, so network alone doesn't tell you anything. And we would just analyze the basic conversation map of what applications we're talking to these boxes.

    And then trace it back like no one is hitting this box the past 30 days. No application service except for anti virus and back up. Then clearly it's not a critical box. Could you code it? Could we pull code off there and virtualize it? What could you do to show, get the physical ironed out?

    Yeah. That's what a good discovery tool does.

    Show me this packet going from this server to that server. Show me exactly what's happening.

    Yeah. Well, if you find one let me know because I've really not found a good discovery tool. We busted through a lot of them and they have all been very complex. We had high hopes for Tideway but that didn't pan out so well.

    And now, the BMC has bought them, we see them sunsetting. I don't know, I'm going to actually have a chance to play with Numara's asset manager coming up soon.

    There are good things about them.

    Yeah, for good things of open tools. We'll see.

    Yeah, I haven't found one. I've got feature requests in, you know?

    Make it better. Make it better.


    It used to be one that who bought them? Who's the big antivirus counting, not McAfee but the other one.


    Symantec. Symantec bought a company called Relicore.

    Oh, yeah, Relicore. Yeah. They were Minnesota-based, weren't they?

    I don't know, I think they were here in Boston.

    Oh okay.

    And they were agent based. But they did a really good job. What they did differently is they actually used the executable to the services that were running which was really great, because they could not only tell you real time change management at the file level and who access to change those files.

    But then they could actually watch the ports and services going out so that they could tell you what executables were mapped to the application services that were running, which was really valid you know, other tools like MAM from was Mercury, now HP, Tideway, Collation Confignia, which is now owned by IBM and all those who do it more in a network layer and M Layers which. Who owns M Layers now, I think EMC. They all would do it in a network port layer which would only get you so far.

    It would get you the destination, but not the actual services and the software config that was running. So, I still think an opportunity. I don't know. We'd love to hear from listeners if they've had some good experiences. Post it on the facebook.com.itsm site.

    Yeah, or get one of us on Twitter.


    All right, gentlemen.

    Good show, Beran. Appreciate the insights. I think it was some good nuggets that you gave us.

    Well, I'll send you a bill.

    And Mr. Wilkey for joining us today.

    Pleasure to be. Thank you.

    Thank you all for listening this week?

    And have a good one.

    Yeah, we'll look forward to seeing Chris next week.

    All right, see you guys.

    Bye, everybody. This has been ITSM Weekly The Podcast.

    The Podcast.

    I gotta write, Chris.!


    Bye, everybody.

    This was ITSM Weekly. Thank you for listening. For more information about this podcast and ITSM news, go to itsmweekly.com.

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ITSM Weekly The Podcast


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