Lens Flair Media

Lens Flair Media

My last post was CS5 vs. FCP. That was before I did the research. Now I am sold on Avid Media Composer for one simple reason.... no rendering!

For anyone considering anything other than Avid, you don't know what you're missing... watch this: youtube.com/user/avid#p/c/5CB187371F76AD51/1/tm-4GVi8g0U

Unless you enjoy rendering then go ahead and buy FCP, Vegas, or Premiere. But if you want to edit right off your card and mix and match all different types of formats on one timeline, then go with Avid Media Composer.

But if you still want to render, and find it therapeutic or something... then I suggest you print all your footage to 35mm and splice it the old fashioned way while you're at it... ;o)

Perrone Ford

Perrone Ford

While I feel Avid has a ton to offer, don't completely discount other suites.

Color, in the FCS suite is untouchable by Avid. And if your primary game is color timing or grading, that is a suite that deserves a HARD look.

If you need After Effects or anything like it, then Adobe needs to be in your list as well.

On the PC, Vegas handles RED better than anything else right now. At least pending the release of Media Composer 5. And Vegas is the only one that can have a 4k timeline, and the only one with 32bit internal processing. It also has the best BluRay authoring tools.

Each have their merits, but on balance I feel Avid brings the most to the game in a single suite.

Lens Flair Media

Lens Flair Media

You can always get After Effects for Media Composer can't you? MC5 comes with Boris FX. How does that compare to AE? Also, if you need better color for Avid can you use Magic Bullet?

johnbmx4christ

johnbmx4christ

i have used premiere for a long time now (from 6.0 to CS4) and am confused on the render issue. there is "rendering" and then there is "exporting". no matter what you use dont you still need to "export" somewhere to your desired final format? i have never ever needed to "render" anything in premiere even on 6.0 so i dont completely understand.

Lens Flair Media

Lens Flair Media

I have not used any of these editing suites so I can't answer your rendering question. I'm just in the market to buy one. But in reading up on all of them, only Avid to this point could natively edit files straight from a DSLR camera. FCP and CS4 you had to render the files before you could edit them. But perhaps this all depends on what type of files you are importing. I'm talking about DSLR's like 5D and 7D which require rendering in CS4 and FCP. What camera/files are you importing?

Perrone Ford

Perrone Ford

It greatly depends on the kind of footage, what effects are added, etc. Premiere can play back various stuff, but won't give real time playback in some cases, and most certainly not with AVCHD or h.264 files.

johnbmx4christ

johnbmx4christ

yeah i've always had a realtime preview and then exported.

Ben's Videos

Ben's Videos

Premiere CS4 does work natively with AVCHD without rendering... I have one of those cameras and have no problem at all.

Lens Flair Media

Lens Flair Media

I just read that with CS5 it will. CS5 really is a game changer. Unless you are a big production house, CS5 will be able to do almost everything Avid does for an independent filmmakers needs. Plus you get After Affects, Photoshop, and Illustrator with the production suite which is still much cheaper than MC5.

I pretty much have to go with CS5 because I need these other programs. I can't afford to buy MC5 on top of that, when it already will come with an editing program that will meet my needs.

Perrone Ford

Perrone Ford

Absolutely understood. Money keeps any number of folks out of Avid.

thichcongai

thichcongai

Avid is so expensive and very difficult to find in my country.
The low budget will chose Vegas or Premier
The better one, will chose FCP, its popular

Lens Flair Media

Lens Flair Media

If you are a student you can get Avid for $299. I don't think Vegas or Premiere or FCP is any cheaper than that?

thichcongai

thichcongai

May i use Avid on my sony laptop or my personal computer ( its not anything about apple ).
I finished my high school then i go to work into the fastfood shop but i have some friends, they are student but from others course ( not about cinematic ), so may they buy it with the discount for student
Anyways, I was in the Apple shop yesterday, and I asked for the FCP, its cost me $138 ( singapore dollar ), and i think sony and adobe can little cheaper.

James Smith

James Smith

I think the time of one NLE system vs the next NLE system is rapidly becoming a moot point. Now it's a matter of just editing on the system one feels the most comfortable with. FCP has proven that it can be used for turning out professional quality products. Soon I have no doubt that CS5 will distinguish itself as well. I personally chose Avid because back in my days at film school there wasn't anything else (except the Steenbeck) We all longed for the day when we were grads and got to edit on the Avid. So when the chance came to actually get one I jumped at it.

Matty Brown

Matty Brown PRO

I've used Avid, FCP, and Sony Vegas and still prefer Vegas over the others. Not missing much, hehe. ;)

Perrone Ford

Perrone Ford

Until you need to hand off....

Handing off sound from Vegas is a royal pain. Handing off picture is absolutely impossible if it's not mixed down already or you aren't handing off tracks. Trying to round-trip to ANYTHING industry standard is either incredibly difficult, expensive, or hugely time consuming.

I've cut films in Vegas, and I've posted films in Vegas. And I can't get my Avid system in here fast enough.

Matty Brown

Matty Brown PRO

Why would I get myself in that mess from the get go anything, though? I own Avid, FCP, and Sony Vegas, and prefer Vegas. The hand off issue doesn't make any difference to me. If a client's project calls for Avid or FCP then I'll use those...but all I said was that I prefer Sony Vegas.

Perrone Ford

Perrone Ford

"but all I said was that I prefer Sony Vegas."

No, that's not all you said. I would have not had any comment if that was all you said. But you went on to say: "Not missing much." And that is where the issue is as far as I am concerned.

In your case, it makes no difference. But many people cannot afford to have all these systems so they must make a choice. My only point was that for those who must choose, Vegas can cause headaches should you get to a point where collaboration is necessary. Much more so than Avid or FCP. Or even Premiere.

Matty Brown

Matty Brown PRO

Which meaning of the word "missing" are you meaning? There's a fault in the context you are thinking I mean when I say "missing". It has nothing to do with missing a link or part of something (as in something that is lost). It has to do with the other meaning of the word, which to yearn or mourn over. That is why I put the "hehe" and ";)" afterward. Please make sure to clarify something before judging. :)

And no, it doesn't matter to me. ;)

Kyle McConaghy

Kyle McConaghy Plus

I have only used Final Cut but, i believe, it is the most intuitive, easy-to-learn software i have used. Everything makes sense. A couple of years ago, I bought the Apple Pro Training Series book and learned how to use FCP in a couple of days.

Michael Biggins AKA Blackout

Michael Biggins AKA Blackout

I have no problem syncing sound in Vegas 0d on Win 7 64 bit. I drop my 24p clip in, drop my audio file in from the recorder, find the clapper shut mark and line em up, and then lock them together. Whats the big deal? That being said I wanted to use Premiere CS5 and downloaded the trial and I just find it counter intuitive... perhaps it's more powerful.. but i feel lost... I am shooted on a hacked GH1.3 so I have mbit avchd files but I have a powehouse qud core i7 system and have no problems playing in realtime with effects no rendering. If anyone can pont to a nice starter training video on cs5, please do... even vegas 9d as I'm sure there are things I've missed.

JMJProductions

JMJProductions Plus

I always enjoy this topic and thought I would add my comments to the lot. You are all right and all wrong at the same time. Nothing is perfect and nothing does it all. As stated here it really depends what the end product is and how you get there. Whatever you are experienced in will color your perspective. What is hard for some is easy for others. Vegas is great and has some really powerful plugins that address the issues raised except collaboration and that is not because you can't collaborate it is just that most are on other systems. FCP is taught along with Avid in school and are marketed heavily. Of course what you learn you implement and build your studios around. The market place has done exactly this and so it goes to reason that if you want to work alongside you have to speak the same language.

Vegas is growing but no one established will change over to address a smaller market. It is far easier to use FCP or AVID and in addition does not require the conversion to everything apple does in order to even start working.

The love hate relationship will continue with our NLE'S for sure. Use what works for you to the end that you need it for.

Final point...everyone needs to render for a final output no matter what suite you use. Unless you are talking about FCP which requires prerendering in most cases just to view your edits.

El Director

El Director

"#
Michael Biggins 2 months ago
I have no problem syncing sound in Vegas 0d on Win 7 64 bit. I drop my 24p clip in, drop my audio file in from the recorder, find the clapper shut mark and line em up, and then lock them together. Whats the big deal?"

The big deal comes when you have to cut a feature film. I personally can't imagine having all my files on the timeline at once, and have to do the cut and remove thing. For larger projects, and even smaller, it's much easier to use the trimmer and just add the sections you need to the timeline. This is where Vegas lacks for syncing. I'm a diehard Vegas user, but until I can actually replace the audio of a clip and use it in the trimmer, I stick with doing ADR

Adam Ace Spencer

Adam Ace Spencer

@EL Director- You can select all the files after the cut footage and drag the remaining files over the empty space. I do work on large projects and have no problems with Vegas... Actually, @Michael Biggins, you said you find the clapper shut mark, and also lock em together... as long as I've been using vegas, I had no idea the two were an option. I always selected the two files when ever I moved em.... and if it was a music video for example, I blow up both audio tracks and match em by the waves, .... but I might have to apply your suggestions.

Kinda like the zacuto great camera shootout 2010, if anyone on here happens to have access to all four programs (Vegas, Premiere, FCP and Avid) and could do a basic test and throw it on youtube, I'd really appreciate it... plus it be pretty cool!

Maybe render 2 (one w and one w/out text) versions in each program. Short but long enough to actually see the quality, maybe 10 to 15 seconds each. And make sure its in good lighting conditions. Use basic hd internet settings, 1280X720...

IF ANYONE CAN DO THIS PLLEAASEE NOTIFY ME as I would love to see the results!!!... Thanks ahead of

Steve Renouf

Steve Renouf Plus

Interesting reading you all talking about audio syncing issues - I've not had any since I started using the PluralEyes plugin in Vegas...

Steve Renouf

Steve Renouf Plus

hmm. I find it much quicker (3 cameras [different live stage performances] & 3 x 4 track audio [different performances as above])

Sync up each camera video/audio with corresponding 4 track audio. Save each synced pair as seperate veggie. embed each veggie as seperate tracks in new veggie as 3 camera job. The fact that they are 3 different performances to be cut together means that the 3 tracks can't be completely synced from start to finish but have to be visually synced as you go, to which ever track is the master. I usually use the centre camera view as master and the left and right camera angles as the cut-ins. The audio is usually mainly taken from the 4 track audio corresponding to the centre (main) camera angle, with the other tracks offering alternative sound where there may be noise interference on the main audio (audience coughs, talking, doors banging, etc.).

That initial syncing of the live camera/corresponding live 4 track audio (Edirol R-44) using Plural Eyes saves me time.

I reduce the time it takes by only using about 10 mins. (of 1.5 hour continuous run) at the beginning to sync then dragging out the right edge to full length once it's in sync. Any timing issues between Z5/Edirol can be catered for by adjusting length of audio track on timeline so that the end is in sync too (I haven't found any issues here yet).

Edit:
I would just mention that where there is music/singing, I usually select the best of the 4 track audio as the sound-track and lip-sync the video cuts to that, then bring these edited sections into the main veggie as complete clips.

Xavier Candiani

Xavier Candiani

Soon enough Vegas will be called Industry Standard. Clients are asking if i work in vegas as they are hearing nothing compares to it.

I really can't understand why people would ever use fcp. I think is cause the catchy name and the brutal merchandising.

Perrone Ford

Perrone Ford

Can you export an EDL out of Vegas that anyone else can read yet?

Benjamin Lundin

Benjamin Lundin

I said like that about vegas too before I tried both premiere and avid. Vegas media management sucks so hard. With both avid and premiere you can easily sort all clips.

Another thing I hate about vegas is the trimmer. The trimmer in vegas has got to be the worst thing sony ever made. Seriously. I always just drag-n-droped all my clips to the timeline, which sucks when working with bigger projects, because you cant insert och overlay a clip.

Although you can only see that when you have tried premiere or fcp or avid and really learned it well.

Matty Brown

Matty Brown PRO

I love editing with Sony Vegas. Very smooth program to me.

Devon Meadows

Devon Meadows Plus

Lets talk about the new Avid Media Composer vs. the worst final cut of all time... X

Majd Kabbani

Majd Kabbani

nice post although 1 year old. in my film school they teach us FCPX. its very easy to use but unfortunatly i have been a Windows kid my whole life and cannot adapt/afford to get a Mac just for the sake of FCP. I just got a 13.3" Acer laptop with a 1GB Nvidia 540m video card, 2.3ghz i3 processor, and 6 gigs of ram, with ability to output screen via HDMI. . with this i can afford to a Windows based Editing Suite.. Here is the thing:

i have a Canon XA10, which i plan on using for short films and music videos. format is AVCHD. i do not care if the NLE pre-renders or post-render as long as it doesnt crash half way through. i also like all my footage to be recolored, to give the most dramatic appearance of any footage i use.
I am also ADD so im not sure if Vegas would be good for media management or layout.

so let me scream HELP, AVID OR CS5??

Edmond Marchetti

Edmond Marchetti

I originally planned on using Avid but there was no Vista support at the so, so I went with Vegas, and after 5 or 6 years, am still using it. Vegas (apart from older versions of Premiere Pro) is really the only NLE I have any familiarity with and while I cannot compare, I see no reason to switch to anything else at this point. I have yet to run into any real problem or task that I wanted to achieve that I could not do not in Vegas I'm sure all of these editors will do what we need them to do, once we learn how to use them,. It is our vision that is more important than what NLE we use.

Vinothan Suppiah

Vinothan Suppiah

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but I'm gonna go ahead anyway. I've never edited a video, ever. I would want to start but I'm thinking of learning the very basics before I try out Avid or Premiere or even Vegas. What are your takes on Lightworks and Avidemux which are both free? Which one should I try before moving to Avid for instance? Another reason why I'm going for these two is because of Linux but I am already aware that Linux not supported by the big guns as yet.

Perrone Ford

Perrone Ford

Don't waste your time. Get a copy of Premiere Elements, The cheapest Vegas, or something else under $100. Linux is supported by the "big guns", but you haven't named any big guns in this post.

Vinothan Suppiah

Vinothan Suppiah

Thank you for the reply Perrone. When I said big guns, I actually meant Vegas, Premiere Elements or Avid Studio. Sorry about that as I'm still a newbie :) Anyhow, I checked again and I don't see the support for Linux in their spec sheet. Could you tell me the ones that you're referring to? For now, I'm veering towards that Adobe's offer of Photoshop Elements + Premiere Elements

Perrone Ford

Perrone Ford

Wow, just went and looked. Seems all the high end systems that used to support linuc have stopped. What a shame.

Lew Fraga

Lew Fraga

I've used a couple different versions of FCP and Premiere 6.5-CS5.5, and they were pretty much the same for me. Little things aside (you can cut a clip at the cursor placement with a keystroke in FCP, you can recall footage by keywords if you can't remember which take it was and can't find your notes in Premiere, stuff like that), I've exported EDLs out of Premiere to colorists working in FCP and Color, and audio to guys mixing in ProTools and never had an issue. I don't have to render any H.264 or AVCHD footage to play it back on the timeline, and neither do my Vegas-using friends. Speaking of which...

2 friends in particular (separate studios - they don't know each other) who have busy production studios SWEAR by Vegas and I don't doubt they love it and think it's the best.

But that's the key - what do YOU love?

I've never gotten my hands on an AVID workstation - would love to learn it, but it's just not in the cards right now or the foreseeable future. And though I've never used it, I KNOW it's awesome. Not a doubt in my inexperienced-with-it head.

I learned to edit on flatbeds, cutting film. Lining up the audio of the clapper and marking it with a grease pencil, then matching it to the frame where the clapper makes contact - lock and go! I do this with Premiere to this day and never think about it. I'm sure SOMEONE has a plugin for it, but it doesn't phase me. And BTW - Premiere can edit 5k footage from RED - you just need the hardware - an e-Machine will NOT do ;-)

Just pick the NLE you like working with, and you can afford. Everyone will have to take your word for it as far as telling them which NLE you used. Cuz when they see the final product, there's no VISUAL difference for how you got there.

Dave Baker

Dave Baker

For Linux look at Cinelerra and Kdenlive. Kdenlive is Vegas-ish and has most of the editing functions you could wish for. I once edited a small project with it quite satisfactorily. I couldn't get Cinelerra to work, maybe because I am used to Vegas, but it is supposed to be better.

I threw the towel in and reluctantly went back to Windows because none of my other software, Bluff Titler, Sonicfire Pro etc. was compatible even with WINE and I could find no Linux substitutes.

Steven Young

Steven Young Plus

I've edited on all three platforms and I have to say that Avid is probably the fastest and easiest "cutter" there is out there. And it's very very stable. I sometimes leave my computer on for weeks with Avid running and this beast is still running flawlessly.

I'm getting the new Avid Symphony in a few weeks and can't wait.

Myself, coming from the movie industry, I know the majority of movies, tv shows, etc..etc.. are still edited on avids. And if you want an editing job, you better know how to comfortably navigate avid. I make my living in the wedding industry now, and I shoot close to 10 wedding videos per month. The avid, saves a lot of time....

Push Hollywood aside, when it comes down to it, a NLE is just that...a NLE. If I put a crappy editor who doesn't understand anything about story arcs, inner/external conflict, on my AVID, he'll produce crap.

So to each his own I would say. For me, it will always be Avid Symphony :)

Eddie Robles

Eddie Robles

Great Forum. I have SVP 11 and the the only issue I've had so far is the rendering format/codec to choose when I'm done. I record on a canon 5d mII - .mov files. I'm new at this, but it just seems to be a hassle and I can't open the files that I rendered. Tonight I was at a buddy's house and he just started using Avid. I'm going to download Avid and compare it with SVP 11. Any suggestions for getting the right render out of vegas for HD 1080HD-24 fps from a .mov file. I want H264.I also will be working with another editor on my project - they have final cut pro. I don't want the handoff and collaboration to be a hassle.

eastwind

eastwind

i used fcp for years but have migrated to premier and it was seamless.
if you set up your system properly, cuda supported graphics card and make use of mercury engine, and also set up your projects properly, then rendering is not needed.
i can't compare to avid, but it blazes over fcp and i haven't looked back.

Kyle Fordrung

Kyle Fordrung

I've had experience with all three of the big boys - Final Cut, Premiere Pro and Media Composer - and my personal favorite has to be Premiere Pro (especially CS6).

The gpu acceleration for the Mercury Engine makes the render argument essentially moot.

FCP was great in its heyday, but Apple has essentially abandoned the professional market, and they don't look as though they're coming back to us.

Media Composer is the industry standard, and is an extremely powerful tool, but I've found that it can oft-times be unnecessarily complicated.

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